Questions you don't think SE team will answer.

[ADVSS]

Healers and Tanks may stick to their role, but that doesn't mean we don't like new classes/jobs to play, so why did we get left out in the cold for job content in 4.0? T_T

Also something like they found that adding new tank and healer didnt really affect the people playing healers and tanks in the long run, ie how queues are still role heavy leaning

[Ilenya]

Also something like they found that adding new tank and healer didnt really affect the people playing healers and tanks in the long run, ie how queues are still role heavy leaning

This isn't a bad excuse now, but if this stays the excuse healers and tanks are going to stop due to not having anything new to even try.

[Oscura]

This isn't a bad excuse now, but if this stays the excuse healers and tanks are going to stop due to not having anything new to even try.

If people need to be given incentive to keep playing their role then it simply means they aren't dedicated. You shouldn't need a shiny new class to keep you convinced to keep playing your role.

What baffles me is anyone who mains healer complaining. Did everyone memory-wipe themselves of how bad AST was for a long while? Do you really want a repeat of it?

[Ilenya]

If people need to be given incentive to keep playing their role then it simply means they aren't dedicated. You shouldn't need a shiny new class to keep you convinced to keep playing your role.

What baffles me is anyone who mains healer complaining. Did everyone memory-wipe themselves of how bad AST was for a long while? Do you really want a repeat of it?

Not dedicated is not the same as "Okay with not being able to try new things in the role you want to play in"

[Belhi]

If people need to be given incentive to keep playing their role then it simply means they aren't dedicated. You shouldn't need a shiny new class to keep you convinced to keep playing your role.

What baffles me is anyone who mains healer complaining. Did everyone memory-wipe themselves of how bad AST was for a long while? Do you really want a repeat of it?

I don't fundamentally have an issue with them adding to dps beyond the hassles that will probably arise from the queues at launch but your argument makes little sense. By the same logic they shouldn't add another job for any role. If Tank and Healer don't need new jobs, why would dps?

Being blunt I don't like the balance argument as an excuse because balance is something we should expect in the first place. It basically comes across at least to me as 'you wont be left out because we are going to give you something that we should be given in the first place'. Does that mean that getting balanced jobs is something we are lucky to get?

I don't think that was the intention of what they were saying but it still isn't an excuse I like. It just highlights issues that have been in need of fixing for a while.

[Oscura]

boop

No, my argument does not make little sense. I never said that tanks and healers don't need new jobs. I said they don't need new jobs to keep enjoying their role. This stands for all classes. I am just sick of people talking like they need incentive to keep playing their role. I perfectly support tanks and healers getting a new role, but when I read posts saying stuff like "we should have been given a new role in the first place" or "we deserved a new role" it reeks entitlement and greatly irritates me.

Most people like to pretend they didn't flat out quit Astrologian except the small few, which is also another source of irritation. I can genuinely remember the early days of Heavensward, being nearly the first year entirely, where people would flat out exclude or blame Astrologians for everything. I felt pretty bad for anyone who genuinely liked the class who had to deal with a mob-mentality, even if it was true AST was on the weaker side. I'm not saying "We should never have a healer again after that," I'm saying "Let's wait for them to figure out our current three healers and three tanks before we add another one." The fact of the matter is, realistically, if we got a new healer and tank, what is stopping it from being like 3.0? Dark Knight or warrior is rotated out, AST or SCH is rotated out, repeat the process?

Would people be ultimately satisfied? Now that they have something "new" to try out? What about the people who originally played those classes? How do you think Paladins feel constantly being criticized and all the memes? I constantly see posts from new players about it, or people asking why Monk is bad or "why do you play Monk" or even people just complaining how their class, as in Monk, offers nothing. The problem is that people post these things, wanting these "new" classes, not realizing that it will inevitably screw over someone of an old class. Sure it's not that person's fault, it's SE's fault, but the point stands. Not everyone benefits from having new jobs.

Also "balanced jobs are something we should just get"? Honestly, yes. Problem is? It's not that easy. FFXIV already has gotten more new classes in TWO expansions than most get in over 4 or 5. I honestly think they spoiled the players too heavily giving a class for each role in Heavensward, since now everyone seemed to expect it again and keeps touting how they "deserve" it, or "should've gotten one." It also doesn't help that Dark Knight was just Paladin with a glorified consecration, a leaping slash, and a very good riot blade combo, while Astrologian is just a glorified WHM who draws cards.

Regardless, we're derailing the topic. I'll drop it here, since I wasn't planning to argue with anyone. Too bad there's no private messaging.

tl;dr
I want new Tanks and Healers, just not right now. (I would LOVE to see a new healer and Tank in 5.0, honestly. Even if it had no DPS.)
Don't forget that DRK shoved PLD aside and that MCH mostly shoved MNK/BLM/SMN aside. Don't forget AST (very late in the patch cycle) mostly replaced WHM.

People who enjoy these classes don't want to feel second-class either. Even if you play them and don't, there are plenty who do. Just like there are people who wanted a healer/tank really badly these expansion, and there are people who didn't.

Edit: I also see people comparing bard and machinist to black mage and summoner. Just because they cast bars doesn't mean people who played casting classes should have or would have liked them.
Edit 2: Just realized there's a thread dedicated to this now, if anyone wants to reply you can do so there, I'll get back to you if necessary.

[Zojha]

The fact of the matter is, realistically, if we got a new healer and tank, what is stopping it from being like 3.0?

What is stopping new DPS from breaking DPS balance and team compositions? Or what is stopping the current DPS from breaking it all by themselves with the new toys gotten on the way to 70?

The answer is: Nothing.

And with that, we can get back on topic, with the questions:
"How exactly do you do balancing work? Are you working with theorycrafters and math wizards to analyze the metagame for clues or are you using an iterative approach that relies more on gut feeling?"
and
"If you were to realize a design decision as problematic, would you try to rectify it or rather work around it?"

[Atlaworks]

This isn't a bad excuse now, but if this stays the excuse healers and tanks are going to stop due to not having anything new to even try.

I've been hearing "Healers and tanks are gonna stop if you don't X!" since 2.0, dude(Though in 2.x it was mostly white mages bawwwing about holy getting nerfed). Turns out, we still have healers and tanks, and probably more than before.

I play Warrior alongside Monk and Machinist. And if we had a new tank, I probably wouldn't wanna play it. I'd prefer what we have is balanced to get better so all of them are viable- so that Paladins don't end up in a position like they are now, or god forbid, we end up with 3.0 Astrologians again. Poor things.

[Yurimi]

I've been hearing "Healers and tanks are gonna stop if you don't X!" since 2.0, dude(Though in 2.x it was mostly white mages bawwwing about holy getting nerfed). Turns out, we still have healers and tanks, and probably more than before.

Perhaps but how many of the people on AST are still playing healers right now because we were bored of WHM and SCH and went to that. I know that is why I switched and atm have grown a bit bored of it as well. I am atm looking for a new job to play for 4.0 so while I can only speak for myself there is at LEAST 1 less healer that will be in the pool to pull from as I will be moving to some sort of dps or another and adding to that pool instead (idk which dps yet since I am trying everything to see what suits my fancy but something).

If people need to be given incentive to keep playing their role then it simply means they aren't dedicated. You shouldn't need a shiny new class to keep you convinced to keep playing your role.

What baffles me is anyone who mains healer complaining. Did everyone memory-wipe themselves of how bad AST was for a long while? Do you really want a repeat of it?

I am fairly big on healing. I was a healer in 1.0 (which all we had then was whm) I was WHM in 2.0-2.2 and SCH 2.2-2.55. I changed to AST in 3.0 and had decent success raiding on it. Healing is what I have always done in games even so far as tending to lean on being a healer even in single player RPG's where I control a single character (Tales of series, .hack series, FFXII, FFXIII, etc) but at some point I get bored. I like to try new things and work on mastering a new ability set. That doesnt mean I am not dedicated but if I am playing a game to have fun and am bored of a certain job I am going to find entertainment elsewhere be it another job in this game or a healer in another game.

[Reiryuu]

Because they are focusing on rebalancing the Jobs in those roles.

Also something like they found that adding new tank and healer didnt really affect the people playing healers and tanks in the long run, ie how queues are still role heavy leaning

But they're rebalancing *all* the jobs in 4.0 and, as I said, just because adding new tanks and healers doesn't get people to change jobs doesn't mean the people who play tanks and healers don't like new things too so why do we have to get left out? That doesn't really answer the question. Tanks and healers like new things too, but they decided to just give us the cold shoulder.