Relax savage raid loot restrictions.

[Brian_]

I also don't think that the loot lock system was put in place to deter content sellers (because it clearly has never succeeded at doing that, only worsened the problem). It was put in place to add some integrity to early gear progression and to extend subscription cycles.

Like it or not, we are playing a subscription game. Weekly and daily locks are the bread and butter of this genre because of their effectiveness at extending subscriptions. Progression walls are also the bread and butter of this genre and having a bunch of helpers fast-track people's progression with no gear penalty is not going to entice people to stay subbed.

So I agree with having some type of lock-out system. What I don't agree with is how long it stays in place. I think the raid tier should be completely unlocked every odd patch. The world-prog race is over and coats / twines have been added to hunts so they can be farmed anyways. At that point, I don't think the raid locks are really extending anyone's subscription anymore -- early prog raiders are already BiS by that point due to the manifesto system. I'd argue the influx of raid activity would do more to keep people subbed than weekly locks at that point in the patch cycle.

[Zumi]

They may unlock it in 3.55 since they unlocked it in 2.55 in 2.0. Give people time to get 270 gear for every class.

[Aniya_Estlihn]

I don't see a reason why they can't just use the 24man system for 8man raids.
Chests always spawn, but it is limited to one drop per player, per floor, per week. Done and done.

Preventing the gearing up another group really shouldn't matter, and carries and sells happen regardless of this backwards system. Even so, there's no reason for this when they already have a much more fair system in place for another type of raid content in the first place. As it currently stands the 24m system is more fair as the 8m system is one which: discourages new players from running with those who know the content because the players who have cleared; and can potentially teach, are somehow arbitrarily limiting the amount of chests that spawn, or outright removing them altogether.

For me, it makes no sense no matter how one tries to frame it.

[Nihility]

8 man loot lockouts are only there to throttle the groups pushing for hard progression. If it wasn't for them it would be grind floor 1 until everyone has everything, grind floor 2 until everyone has everything, etc etc
the different loot styles are for the different target group types
the normal mode 8 man, and 24 man raids are made to be done by pugs, so a loot system that promotes repeated runs like it has is beneficial. People that have cleared it will go again to get the items they want inflating the player pool and integrating proven players with less skilled players regularly and the gear is basically just catch-up gear so distribution speed isn't much of an issue
the savage raid is meant for a tight-knit group so it rewards tokens to buy gear after time has passed guaranteeing everyone will eventually get gear but the lockout purposefully slows gear progression to "two to three pieces of gear per 8 people" at best until tokens are built up. They want the savage gear to be very slowly distributed

how long they keep the lockouts in place is another question to answer entirely though

[ZhaneX]

Savage's Loot Restrictions seem pretty harsh imo.

1/4 odds of loot per run with a weekly restriction seems fine.
1/4 odds of loot on first clear only each week seems extreme.
Lowering the number of chests that spawn for groups who have someone that already has a clear that week just seems excessive.

[aleph_null]

I don't see a reason why they can't just use the 24man system for 8man raids.
Chests always spawn, but it is limited to one drop per player, per floor, per week. Done and done.

Preventing the gearing up another group really shouldn't matter, and carries and sells happen regardless of this backwards system. Even so, there's no reason for this when they already have a much more fair system in place for another type of raid content in the first place. As it currently stands the 24m system is more fair as the 8m system is one which: discourages new players from running with those who know the content because the players who have cleared; and can potentially teach, are somehow arbitrarily limiting the amount of chests that spawn, or outright removing them altogether.

For me, it makes no sense no matter how one tries to frame it.

Because in that case everyone can loot the gobdip (which is a really huge upgrade for early progression groups) at the same week. By the third week everyone in the group would have near max ilv weapons, and that might trivialize some dps checks in the fights. Also I think the raid difficulty was tuned with the assumption that every floor would give each group 2 loots (and the gobcoat/twine/dips from second/third floor), so if they change it to something like the 24 man raids, they'll have to tune the difficulty under assumption that every floor would give each person 1 loot (8 loots for the whole group) excluding the coat/twine/dips. Honestly I think that might work, though the fights might be more difficult.

By gearing up another group if you meant the thing I posted in the previous page, then that absolutely matters during the first few weeks since that potentially allows someone to gear up a char many more times faster than they can now. It's not even related to selling carries, it's about the world first race. Allowing the uncleared people to get 2 chests regardless of the number of cleared people in the group is just broken as fuck during the first few weeks of the patch. I'd say it's better to just completely remove the weekly lockout restriction at odd patches like Brian said.

Lowering the number of chests that spawn for groups who have someone that already has a clear that week just seems excessive.

It's harsh but required to prevent people from gearing alt groups ridiculously fast, as I posted earlier. Yes if only one person has a clear it's a bit harsh for the other 7 to get only 1 chest, but what if it's the other way around? What if 7 have cleared, would you still give the last person who hasn't cleared 2 chests? That'd give that person up to 16 gears, 1 weapon tomestone and 3 upgrade items in a single week.

[Altena]

I still stand by how I think they should have done it..

1-4 people already cleared = 2 chests, but for every person cleared there would be a 25% chance that the 2nd chest would drop no loot.
5-8 people already cleared = 1 chest, and with every extra person there would be a 25% chance that the 1st chest would drop no loot.

So you would get something like-

# not cleared = chest 1 / chest 2
----------------------------
7 not cleared = 100% / 75%
6 not cleared = 100% / 50%
5 not cleared = 100% / 25%
4 not cleared = 100% / 0%
3 not cleared = 75%
2 not cleared = 50%
1 not cleared = 25%

[Zumi]

I still stand by how I think they should have done it..

1-4 people already cleared = 2 chests, but for every person cleared there would be a 25% chance that the 2nd chest would drop no loot.
5-8 people already cleared = 1 chest, and with every extra person there would be a 25% chance that the 1st chest would drop no loot.

So you would get something like-

# not cleared = chest 1 / chest 2
----------------------------
7 not cleared = 100% / 75%
6 not cleared = 100% / 50%
5 not cleared = 100% / 25%
4 not cleared = 100% / 0%
3 not cleared = 75%
2 not cleared = 50%
1 not cleared = 25%

That gives an RNG chance to get more loot out of the zone with alts. At a higher loot per player ratio then the standard 8/8 party could get. As in you could have 5 people who could lot and 3 that can't and still get 2 chests.

[KarstenS]

The loot lockout system was quietly a very large part of the reason there was that big exodus from small servers during Gordias and trickling into Midas.

No. The lootsystem was the most unrelevant reason for the "big exodus".

It was the very high demand to player and groupskill, that killed so many groups.

[Altena]

That gives an RNG chance to get more loot out of the zone with alts. At a higher loot per player ratio then the standard 8/8 party could get. As in you could have 5 people who could lot and 3 that can't and still get 2 chests.

Well yes and no..

If you break it down, each player has roughly 25% chance to recieve a piece of gear. (2 items drop, 8 people in the party). Yes RNG can favour you and you can get 2 pieces to split between 6 people, however RNG can also screw you over and you get the current system that is now.. In terms of statistics, it should work out about the same amount of gear per character.