"At the moment we are working to get rid of the gender lock for bunny suits for men."

[Vexander]

-Snip-

As much as I disagree with Adire, I think this is reading a whole lot into their words. Their issue is cross-dressing, not homosexuality, or various ethnicities. I don't disagree with them about how its immersion breaking to see a character wearing clothing that's meant for fun. I've watched videos on Youtube where people had their characters wearing funky getup in cutscenes like approaching Nidhogg, and it turns what is meant to be an epic moment into something kind of meh.

Let's not bring the discussion into a social-political area.

[Serilda]

Boy the current opposition opinion in this thread really went in a direction I didn't want it to, and I definitely don't stand with any of it. Cross dressing options aren't a problem, my distaste for them stems only from the fact that I don't feel it's wholly necessary to spend development time on making everything unisex. Sure wish that's what others had as their reasons to oppose it instead of this silliness!

Let's try to steer it back on topic, because actively discriminating against players of male characters solely in order to conform to one person's restrictive personal tastes is a level of creepy I don't think we need in the game. It's also fundamentally silly when the female-only bunny costumes are quite scandalous on their own (given their heavy real world association with adult entertainment) and even in the game they're stuck in the entertainment district, not part of a normal person's everyday wardrobe.

I don't actually mind them not making everything unisex, but they keep working themselves into a weird corner where they release something for females, alongside something for everyone. They need to stop doing this and address the problem they voluntarily created, then we can all move on with our lives. We keep complaining and they keep doing it; I've seen the (perfectly reasonable) requests for Ishgardian dresses recently but since they made the Alpine Coat unisex they now have a glamour they probably want to release for females only with no male-only counterpart to offer, forcing them to make something entirely new or let men wear the dress. I am totally ok with wearing the dress as a compromise since we already (all) got the more masculine version and I'm always wearing luxurious gowns anyway as a healer, but I'm not ok with that dress coming out for female characters only while we're left behind again. The waste of development time is happening right back during the planning stage when people keep signing off these girl-only ensembles without properly considering the situation.

Part of the entire problem here is that rather than making a sexy bunny costume for both genders they made two for girls and nothing at all for guys with the same theme; why did they release the second one before addressing this long, long complained-about issue (which is also regularly discussed on the Japanese forums, it's not something only westerners find annoying)? I am sure that it didn't take much work to make the Bunny Chief variant, but then would releasing the ears, cuffs and shoes to male characters have taken any more? It's silly, and I'm personally very much looking forward to the male-only bunny costume as step to redressing the balance.

[RaijinSupreme]

As much as I disagree with Adire, I think this is reading a whole lot into their words. Their issue is cross-dressing, not homosexuality, or various ethnicities. I don't disagree with them about how its immersion breaking to see a character wearing clothing that's meant for fun. I've watched videos on Youtube where people had their characters wearing funky getup in cutscenes like approaching Nidhogg, and it turns what is meant to be an epic moment into something kind of meh.

Let's not bring the discussion into a social-political area.

But there's absolutely no difference in wanting to keep certain things out of the game because it makes someone "uncomfortable by the mere sight of it" than it is refuse service to black man for being black, or to discriminate against a person simply because they love differently. I'm not trying to make it a social-political conversation, but I wouldnt expect to see this kind of talk in the forums for a video game either.

And I'm not arguing what's "immersion breaking" or not. That topic is very subjective and near impossible for there to ever be a clear line between what's immersion breaking for everyone and what isn't. There are plenty of things that can do that for one, but wouldn't bother another. That part of the argument I have no qualms with.

Its this idea that things shouldn't be added to this game simply because someone doesn't want to "see it" that bothers me. Because it makes them uncomfortable. Someone being able to freely express themselves in whatever manner they so choose is wrong if it does not fit in the traditional box set by our society. It does no one any harm, and it can bring joy to any number of people (people in this thread for example), yet they shouldn't have it because the rules of gender roles and gender identity says a man wears pants and a woman wear skirts, and that concept should not be muddled.

If you decide you don't want to associate yourself with someone who cross-dresses because of how uncomfortable it makes you feel, you have every right to that decision. But to tell someone they should never have the right to do so simply because you yourself don't agree with it is bigoted, no matter if its a game or in real life.

I've dealt with issues like this too many times in my life, and I'll be damned to see it in such a light-hearted game and society like this one, and not speak up about it.

Let people have what makes them happy.

[GMERC]

Let people have what makes them happy.

Within reason. Not to say that this case isn't very much within reason, though.

[Vexander]

Let people have what makes them happy.

This I can agree on. The other stuff, well, I find there is a difference between expressing an opinion on a forum in a thread where it is relevant (even if they'd have done better to word their argument very differently to be less abrasive to those of that lifestyle choice being discussed), and people who actively go out and start fundraisers and protests and petitions and write to their senators trying to get something they personally don't want to see banned. Two very different things.

One is a person expressing their opinion.
The other is a Bigot enforcing their opinion.

[Serilda]

I do think it is important to let people with bigoted opinions know they're not acceptable though. If there's no pushback from the community in a safe environment like the curated forum for an openly inclusive global game, people start to get the mistaken idea that their discrimination is socially acceptable (indeed it was specifically cited to be the majority view when I expect the majority of players are used to seeing guys in dresses by now and no longer care so long as they have enough DPS to push mechanics on ZurvanEX).

[Vexander]

Just because an opinion differs does not make it bigoted. A bigot is, by the dictionary definition, "a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion." Its more bigoted to shut down their opinion by dismissing it as, 'Bigoted,' than to discuss it. I do understand how the wording of their posts makes it come across that way, but again, they're not trying to -enforce- their opinion, just express it. They've stated it makes them uncomfortable. They've stated it makes other people uncomfortable. I do not doubt either of those statements. I do doubt such lines as, 'silent majority,' of course, because there is no way to back that. They have the right to express and defend their opinion in peace, without buzzwords like, 'Bigot,' and, 'Racist,' coming out to discredit them.

I just think its more productive all around to discuss the matter. Assuming, for example, that they find the idea of cross-dressing so displeasing, what might they suggest as an alternative to unlocking gender-locked sets? I saw an interesting suggestion earlier of a male bunny suit being a Chip N' Dales kind of outfit with chaps, a bow tie, and bunny ears and tail. Seems like an excellent suggestion that avoids heavy cross-dressing while adding what this thread states we want, which is a male version of a genderlocked outfit.

[Serilda]

I'd like nice shiny shorts or chaps with a collar/bow tie, cuffs and the bunny decorations. An alternate set of ears like the ladies have would be good. I would also personally like a version of the shorts (if they do shorts) with fishnets but understand if that is too risqué; it would go nicely with a lot of existing caster gear though which often pushes that particular envelope.

When someone released the thread requesting bare chested suspenders I wondered briefly whether we might get that instead of the bare chest and tie look. It could be interesting and since it wouldn't really be appropriate on female models, it would be a decent opportunity to use the idea.

[Vidu]

I dont get how a person in this day and age can get offended and that worked up about a bunch of pixels (or molecules!) forming a male body dressed in clothes that are more designed to suit a female body... and at this point I'm to afraid to ask...

[Vexander]

I just got a buzzword BINGO from this post!

I swear, I used to think you and I were on entirely different ends of the spectrum when it came to opinions, but these days I am agreeing far too much with you in threads. Not sure if I became jaded, you saw the light, or we've both fallen from grace.