As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[Chocolys]

I think this thread should be closed now, given the fact that it's been discussed to death and every aspect has been accounted for: All we can do is wait for Stormblood to fix all the problems(or make them worse), I suppose.

I don't think it should be closed. While I agree there is lot of back and forth repeating the same thing over and over,. That's just often the bad side of such discussion with often people joining lately and only reading the last pages and the same debate cycle starting again. The good thing is sometime there is some clever and interesting posts

Also if you close it, it will probably just reappear with another name in few days

[Cynfael]

That's just often the bad side of such discussion with often people joining lately and only reading the last pages and the same debate cycle starting again.

I agree with you; this thread itself is just the latest in a long line of forum discussions on this topic.

I can't claim not to have a bias here; I've gotten progressively less diplomatic as the discussion wears on and I see people failing to read and even to attempt to address arguments in an reasonable manner. That being said, I see the same positions crop up consistently:

1. The player who maintains that the Healer role ought to have nothing to do with DPS in a group setting. For this person, no argument about metrics or a sense of fair party contribution is effective, because their position is entirely subjective; they just "feel" that healers should support only by healing. Essentially, no one will ever contribute an opinion that will change this person's mind, because they fundamentally don't want the game to work that way and will attempt to ignore any argument that points out the gameplay advantages of healers using their full kits.

2. The player who sees any expectation of healer DPS as a sort of social/bullying issue and objects on the ground that it is unfair and unkind to "pressure" healers to play a certain way. The unfortunate implication here is, of course, that it is inherently unfair to expect anyone to play in any specific way, much less correctly or efficiently, and that the individual right to play the game as desired always outweighs the party's expectation to play with others who will put forth a like degree of effort in order to enjoy the game.

3. The player who accepts that healer DPS is desirable and is willing to play well, but who wishes that healer gameplay could be more heavily focused on healing actions. Not much to argue here since we're talking about a matter of preference, not what constitutes skillful play.

4. The player who truly doesn't understand how healer DPS can and does work on account of their personal experience and/or current skill level not matching up with that of other healers. Those who want to improve ask questions and practice; those who have given up complain bitterly that everyone else must be playing a different game or rolling casual content with Savage-accomplished static groups.

5. The player who buys into the concept of the "full healer kit" and that there is a time for most every action. When this is your viewpoint, it's very difficult to understand how anyone can justify not dancing in and out of CS constantly when you know a dungeon or an encounter. GCDs spent standing around waiting to heal, knowing that no one is in danger of dying and that MP is not an issue, are baffling.

[gumas]

I think this thread should be closed now

have feeling the moment this thread close, it will just pop a new one under different name, in fact we already have one with different perspective lol

[era1Ne]

Be careful what you wish for, what is the difference between a healing rotation and a DPS rotation then if healing was more difficult? They're both rotational type playstyles. At the moment, this heal/DPS duality lends itself to the most unique playstyle of all the classes. 100% healing is more boring than you think.

I also want to add that an... lets say 80% heal 20% dps "meta" will never happen in casual content for us main healers, because they have to balance this casual content around inexpierenced players or many people would stop healing, cause they get blamed for not beeing able to go further then the second boss of a dungeon for example. For the same reason we don't see many dd checks, because many dd wouldn't be able to go past it, since they do not know enough about their class. You can tell when an bard for example doesnt put their dots up, that they do not know the basics of their job.

[VanilleFang]

Tint

I didn't say anything to Tint directly except in reply to this quote.

but since you all are right - healers should dps when there is nothing to heal - and actually there is nothing to heal in most of the content - i quit healing

I never implied that Tint themselves does not make a productive healer, and none of my questions were direct directly at Tint.
Just wanted to clarify.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

Can someone who is anti-healer DPS explain to me how standing around for 98% of a fight or spamming Cure/Physick/Benefic is more fun than Stance dancing?

You see it as "standing around", to those who feel opposite of you, they see it as waiting for the next heal, or are planning proper timing for other supportive spells. For an opposite opinion of your Healer DPS view, mashing a single button over and over as WHM with the occasional DoT(s), some find to be rather dull and unexciting, and feel like a poor man's DPS. Also, constantly switching between a move as disruptive to the flow of someone's gameplay as Cleric Stance is over and over to not be for their tastes as far as gameplay goes.

[HoodRat]

Also, constantly switching between a move as disruptive to the flow of someone's gameplay as Cleric Stance is over and over to not be for their tastes as far as gameplay goes.

Are you implying that it's okay to play however you want if you don't like how a class should be played? Finally, I can show everyone just how good of a ranged dps war can be.

[VanilleFang]

u

snip

"Waiting" is the same as doing nothing. And planning proper timing of support spells? Most support skills in the game that need proper planning are oGCD, so that doesn't even make sense.

Cleric Stance is not disruptive. This is something I don't really understand about that mind set because CS is only on a 5sec cooldown after you activate it. It's easy, after some practice, to understand when it is okay to pop it. If you make a mistake it's generally okay for those 5 seconds anyway, if we're talking 50-60, since each healer has something that can help keep the tank alive even while in CS. Benediction heals the target to full HP regardless of CS or not, so using it while in CS is VERY efficient.

A general lv.60 dungeon pull for me goes something like this (brackets mean "if needed"): Divine Seal > Regen > (Tetra) > Asylum > (Cure II) > Cleric Stance > Holy > Aero III > Holy > Holy > Assize > Holy until Regen/Asylum run out or someone takes a large amount of damage > Cleric Stance off > Healing until everyone is good > Cleric Stance > Holy/Stone III until we win.

How would a fight go if I didn't DPS? Divine Seal > Regen > Asylum > Cure > Nothing > Cure > Nothing > Cure? Or would I even bother using Divine Seal?

I'm not saying everyone should play the same as me, but the second example is clearly inferior.

[Rivxkobe]

You see it as "standing around", to those who feel opposite of you, they see it as waiting for the next heal, or are planning proper timing for other supportive spells.

It is standing around. Waiting and doing nothing while you wait is inefficient and a complete waste of GCDs. Why stand and do nothing when no one is in danger, just because someone might need to be healed in 5 seconds?

For an opposite opinion of your Healer DPS view, mashing a single button over and over as WHM with the occasional DoT(s), some find to be rather dull and unexciting, and feel like a poor man's DPS.

Anyone who is doing this is also being inefficient. DPSing as a healer does not mean you stand around and spam the same spell, you DPS when you can. But, I'm confused. How can doing something be more boring than doing nothing. Also, waiting to heal is a silly thing to do in this game considering that there is no reason to keep anyone at 100% HP 100% of the time in most any content.

Also, constantly switching between a move as disruptive to the flow of someone's gameplay as Cleric Stance is over and over to not be for their tastes as far as gameplay goes.

Sorry but your "gameplay" doesn't mean you can drag everyone else down by being ineffective and expect everyone to accept it. If you are being inefficient and useless a large percentage of the time (and no, overhealing doesn't mean you are being useful) other players are going to call you out on it. Because why should anyone accept you being inefficient and carried through content just because it is how you decide to play?

As an example when I see a WAR spamming Overpower/Flash/Tomahawk on a boss, not using their stacks and/or not comboing correctly (as in using Skull Sunder when they haven't used Heavy Swing etc.) I call them out on it. Why? Because it may be how they want to play but it is inefficient and they doing next to nothing.

[Cynfael]

You see it as "standing around", to those who feel opposite of you, they see it as waiting for the next heal, or are planning proper timing for other supportive spells. For an opposite opinion of your Healer DPS view, mashing a single button over and over as WHM with the occasional DoT(s), some find to be rather dull and unexciting, and feel like a poor man's DPS. Also, constantly switching between a move as disruptive to the flow of someone's gameplay as Cleric Stance is over and over to not be for their tastes as far as gameplay goes.

I'm not sure how to make it clear that there is no need to stop and do nothing while "waiting for the next heal." A good healer is perfectly capable of planning ahead while performing any action.

Weaving in DPS while you monitor the fight is not disruptive to anyone's flow of gameplay if done correctly; there is a reason why Cleric Stance is an oGCD ability. When there is no need for consecutive healing actions, it should become natural to fill the time with supporting DPS.

Also, whether or not one finds using attack magic to be "dull and unexciting" is irrelevant in the context of gameplay discussion (even though I'm not sure how standing still beats attacking in terms of excitement). It's objectively true that, in this game, better healers support the party with their full kits; a "healing-only" healer can never meet their full potential. While it's possible for a player to be great at healing without contributing DPS, it is not possible for a player to be great at the healer role that way.