A case of chronic gear imbalance

[Cordie]

While it may seem unfair, it's made so that raiders who gave the hardest content will get the best gear fastest.

And how would giving grinders the i270 Shire set prevent raiders from getting their best gear?

While people who grind casual content will get gear slower and not as strong.

I see the same line of thought again: Raiders = hardcore, grinders = casual. Would you mind perhaps explaining how a grinder may not be a hardcore grinder?

[Cordie]

It's basically saying "this is all you need to clear the content you're running" VS "you're going to need to this to continuing advancing in this content".

In case you don't see it, these 2 statements are equivalent. Where's the "vs" going?

Honestly, even ilv 260 gear is rather high for the content non-raiders run.

And I would have absolutely no problem if all equipment in the game was currently limited to i260.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

And how would giving grinders the i270 Shire set prevent raiders from getting their best gear?

I see the same line of thought again: Raiders = hardcore, grinders = casual. Would you mind perhaps explaining how a grinder may not be a hardcore grinder?

It wouldn't prevent them from getting anything. The point is it's a reward for clearing the hardest content in the game. An incentive that makes people want to run savage and not just stop at normal. Just like high Tome turnout is an incentive to run the same two level 60 expert dungeons all week.

And a hardcore grinder would be the people who grind savage for their gear/tokens or the people who grind Ex primals for a weapon.

Casual grinders are the ones that grind Ex dungeons and maybe multiple relics. That's not hardcore, it's just excessive. No offense.

[Cordie]

It wouldn't prevent them from getting anything. The point is it's a reward for clearing the hardest content in the game. An incentive that makes people want to run savage and not just stop at normal. Just like high Tome turnout is an incentive to run the same two level 60 expert dungeons all week.

And the reward would automatically decrease?? By, say, 10 item levels?

And a hardcore grinder would be the people who grind savage for their gear/tokens or the people who grind Ex primals for a weapon.

I think you are mistaking repetitive running of instant gratification content (cleared? here's a freebie!) for grinding.

Also, I'm not sure how you would propose "grinding" savage. Several raiders above, in trying to sound convincing that 1 i270 piece per week isn't better than 0.9 of an i260 (!), have made it quite clear that once you get your weekly freebies the first time you're done - nothing to grind there.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

I know some games that would stick you with the gear that drops in dungeons until you start running harder content.

IMO, this is how it *should* be. Get your drops from running the content over and over, with Tomestones being a currency used to get catch-up gear, or compensation gear. Dropped gear should be the best stuff, bought gear the second best. If you are doing the hardest content (the so-called raids) then you should be getting the best drops. If you are doing group level content, then you should get that tier drops. Stuff bought with the raid currency should be between raid and group level drops, and stuff bought with group level currency should be lower than group level drops.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, SE decided to flip that. Raid drop weapons are the best, currency gear and raid gear are ultimately the same, and group dropped gear is the worst of the lot, suitable only for glamour or GC Seals.

[iluvOP]

The way I see it. In MMO's in general, grindable gear is something you have to work for a longer period of time so the gear can ease you into the raid content.
While more skillful groups and such don't need the best grindable gear to clear raids and they get good gear there to progress through it and do subsequent clears with the help of the better gear that they earned thanks to their effort.

As "rude" it might sound. High ilvl gear is like an "easy mode" ticket to harder content that others didn't necessarily need.
Better raid gear is the "reward" given to good groups for their effort.

[Cordie]

[...] currency gear and raid gear are ultimately the same, and group dropped gear is the worst of the lot, suitable only for glamour or GC Seals.

Not quite. Currency (tomestone) gear is insanely crippled (-10ilvls) given that the raids may still drop the best (that is best sub-stat distribution) items.

Besides, this is an RPG; the best items should be available exclusively through grinding, not as free loot after a 10/15-minute fight -after all the coordination, for such a short duration, of 8 raiders doing savage (read: just following real-time instructions on voice chat, for the most part) is next to nothing compared to the long-term scheduling and optimization you need for efficient grinding across content.

Yes, dungeons seem to be intended as company seals/lore tomes grinding content, with some being better than others (hint: expert ones are the most inefficient time-wise).

[Nakanishi]

I cringe at your belief that all RPGs must have insane amounts of grinding to get the best gear, mostly because that isn't even true. I'm also annoyed at your lack of any knowledge of how the raid even works. You disregard the fact that you still have to learn the raid fights, which takes way longer than 10-15m, have a 100x greater wipe chance than Lolfacerolldungeonspam, RNG based, and a weekly lockout.

Raiding needs scheduling and far more optimization than planning out what dungeon I can roll my face over the keyboard faster. You have no idea how the loot system even works in raid and gloss over the fact that raiders still have to cap scripture like "hardcore grinders". Unless you cleared the raid week one, being insanely unlucky is common and you'd not even reach i270 until the odd # catchup patch that is 3.5. If you need the best fear so badly, there is patch dedicated to your desire. Get over yourself and be patient.

[Espritduo]

You are grossly overestimating how much i270 gear people actually get from raiding. You don't seem to understand that once a turn is cleared for the week, that's it, you don't get any more chances for loot from that turn whether you actually got anything from it or not. There is no running multiple groups to farm what you want. There is no passing what you don't want until what you do want drops. There is no rolling on stuff until you win. There is no control whatsoever over actually getting anything at all for the week from raiding. Most weeks you get nothing at all except a manifesto page that it takes 1-2 months to do anything at all with, even for a shitty ring. Most raiders upgrade their gear doing the same thing you're doing - grinding scripture for i260. Any random i270's they get is just that, random blessings from Rngesus.

Anyone that had full i270 within the first three weeks was A. A hardcore world class raider, B. incredibly lucky beyond belief with their drops, and C. a selfish ahole who took all their groups's gobdrops for themself to upgrade their scripture.

EDIT: And I'm going to say right now, if you really want i270 gear right now and can't wait one month for 3.5, there is nothing stopping you from going and getting it yourself, if you think it is so quick and easy to do it. Find a group, make a schedule, and sit down and learn the fights. This is coming from a person who had never raided in his life before 3.4, never dreamed of clearing Gordias or Midas, never wanted to have anything to do with the stress of raiding.....and yet is on track to clear a12s next week, god willing. I did it, on MATEUS, the lowest-pop and most raiding-dead server in the world. There is nothing stopping a person who cares enough about this to whine on the forums about it from sitting down and putting in the TIME and EFFORT to clear the current raid tier. If you don't care about raiding, and that is perfectly alright, then you wait until the very next patch and get your upgrades as quick as your grindy little heart can take. That's what I did for years, and I was fine with it. And I consider myself a hardcore grinder way before I consider myself a hardcore raider. (lol me a hardcore raider, lolol)

[Cordie]

I cringe ... a weekly lockout.

I'm afraid learning the raid fights may only be limited by your personal skill and communication with your group. This is not something that warrants unbalancing other parts of the game -however this is exactly what they did.

Raiding needs scheduling and far more optimization than planning out what dungeon I can roll my face over the keyboard faster.

It does.. for like a whopping 15 minutes...
Raiding is the quintessential instant gratification part of the game.

You have no idea how the loot system even works in raid and gloss over the fact that raiders still have to cap scripture like "hardcore grinders"

How the loot system works? 8 drops per week, for 8 people.. do your maths.

If anything, capping lore is casual grinding. (I'd be glad to have more grinding available for the i270 Shire gear).