Would you like an in-game parser?

[RobbieH]

I thought I made myself clear, that the parser would help you realize how changes to your rotation affect your DPS. Just because the numbers are 60 vs 80 doesn't mean you're not doing 33% more damage. It's a great feedback tool to tell you how you are doing as you level.

Before i start i'd like to say that so far you're the only one worth replying to, then i'd like to point out that these forums are indeed a bad place as stated in both in-game and reddit, it goes as follows:

- Someone disagrees with your ideas, gets burned alive
- People make an argument, others take it personally
- People skip arguments when they have nothing to counter them, or start going around in an attempt to dodge the argument
- People rarely read a big post, then they post one liners or whatever they can make an argument out of it leaving whatever they can't argument against behind.
- People find someone disagreeing with them and will like any post that's made against that person whether they have a point or not.

People learn by trial and error. You use logic and tooltips to think up ways to adjust your rotation and then you use feedback from a parser to determine if it made a difference.

Then can you explain me how i was taking aggro from Tanks as Monk in Binding Coil when there were no parsers (that i'm aware of)? Yes, tank aggro was buffed in a patch but i was the only one getting aggro in the static, i don't think i could possibly know if my DPS was good or not besides getting that aggro.

Considering you are advocating using logic, this is a fairly illogical conclusion. I am advocating that parsers will help the general community improve. Having the ability to improve doesn't mean that everyone is bad. That said, the vast majority of DF players do play poorly.

I never said everyone was bad, i simply said parsers won't make players much better.

How can you expect people to learn from parsers, parsers don't teach them rotations, guides or other players do.

Yeah ok, they do 1-2-3 and get 300DPS, now what?

Do you expect them to go from 1-2-3 to 15 button pressers by looking at the parser numbers?

It's not going to happen, from here they have two choices, they can go read/watch a guide and do some testing and/or they can start pressing more buttons.

The numbers might tell them that their DPS is bad, but no way they're going to become much better just with the numbers parses give them, looking at parsers advanced statistics is useless as well because those people probably don't have much clue on what they mean (yet).

I thought I made myself clear, that the parser would help you realize how changes to your rotation affect your DPS. Just because the numbers are 60 vs 80 doesn't mean you're not doing 33% more damage. It's a great feedback tool to tell you how you are doing as you level.


People learn by trial and error. You use logic and tooltips to think up ways to adjust your rotation and then you use feedback from a parser to determine if it made a difference.


Considering you are advocating using logic, this is a fairly illogical conclusion. I am advocating that parsers will help the general community improve. Having the ability to improve doesn't mean that everyone is bad. That said, the vast majority of DF players do play poorly.

This likely depends on the player, the content and their current level of skill. It's also an odd argument as the two are not mutually exclusive. I am fairly certain plenty of players who watch guides also use parsers.

Reading guides while using a parser makes sense, but expecting someone to learn a proper rotation from a parser doesn't, they will have to either do like me and a lot of people and read tooltips and follow logic, and from there test again, afterwards if they feel like they aren't doing enough for what they want they can go read a guide.

It's interesting you have this perspective, as between the two of us, you're being the jerk. In this post alone, you've insulted me by calling me dumb, saying I'm stroking my epeen and have made several other negative assumptions about me. Yet, between the two of us, you're the one advocating for no parser and I am advocating for a parser.

Well i'm sorry you read that like that, i apologize, wasn't my intention, but please don't make it look much worse than it is.

Just so you are aware, every single person who is seen doing poor DPS in games like WoW are not kicked, or even mocked. The vast majority is simply ignored.

Can't comment on that, i simply read the statement made by someone a few pages page, but that's good to know.

That is great for you. In a way you did you use a parser, the SSS, to determine your level. A parser would provide this feedback in all content. That way you could see how things change throughout. It would provide feedback as you are learning your class. It would provide your AST feedback to know who to buff - and so on.

On this i can agree, especially in Savage, and especially by looking at stats in the parser itself, such as auto attacks, uptime, crit values etc

But the thing is, people want the parser for themselves so they can see their DPS and also expect other players to become better with it, and it's here that this isn't actually true, i already explained why, but going to add on it, people get better with both parser and guides, but then the try Savage and their DPS isn't enough even for first turn, and their gear is at least enough for 3rd turn (this is just a sample scenario i'm creating), so what went wrong?

They either didn't follow the guide, didn't test SSS or dummy rotation (SSS is still better than normal Dummy because after 3m mark some Jobs can repeat their burst and thus increase their DPS).

I'm strongly in favor that people should help bad players to help them become better being with or without parser.

It kind of sounds like you think that a parser would replace SSS, video guides, written guides and so on. These are not mutually exclusive.

I don't know how you got to this conclusion and i'm sorry that you did, maybe i explained myself wrong, i simply like SSS for the reason mention above, 3m mark so people can't get a new burst to increase their numbers, obviously in a Raid scenario they can do this, not going to question that.

But that's what dummies are for, to test rotations and perfect them and gain experience from it without being interrupted, so that then people can give Savage a shot while having an idea if their DPS is enough for that specific turn.

@RobbieH i want a parser so I can track my own dps. It's very simple. Nothing i said went against that.

--insert insult here--

Yes i already got that, what you don't seem to get is that my point besides the possibility of toxicity towards bad players is that the parser alone won't make bad players good players, the parser won't teach them a rotation or remind them that they need to press more buttons.

@RobbieH

Are you worried that people will get kicked for doing low dps?
Let me ask you this, 'Have you ever kicked a player for playing poorly in DF?'

Yes it worries me that bad players get kicked in DF, DF isn't serious content, and it's a place for everyone to enjoy, thats why it exists, that's why there's no current Savage on it.

Kicking someone offline and AFK is ok, s long as that person is afk for a long period, if they had someone knocking on their door they would go for it, anyone would go for it.

It can take time, it's not their fault some random person went to knock on their door.

Can also be someone taking care of baby and the baby starts crying.

There's a LOT of something that most people don't understand it's meaning: circumstances.

Offline people:

Someone might have poor internet connection, it's not their fault their ISP is having issues or is simply a bad ISP, which might also be the only one available to them.

Then there's the issue where the game tells us we are still logged in when coming back, i guess this is also players fault?

Majority of people don't. They simply go with it and then complain about it here.

Majority? These forums is maybe frequented at most by 10% of the player base, lol.

The only time I see a player getting kicked is when they go offline, AFK for a long time or start acting salty to others in party.

On DF for the most part this is true, but not always, in DF Trials and Raids poor players still get kicked being them DPS, Healers or Tanks.

[WeekendSoja]

@RobbieH

Reading your post has really disheartened my view on this games community. While pro-parsers are advocating that a parser could potentially raise the level of players capability by allowing them to see real numbers behind a rotation they studied from a guide, in tandem also giving them confidence to pursue other things if they start to see that their numbers are lining up with above average parsers.

While you on the other hand advocate the negatives of parsing, and these negatives being at the most extreme of circumstances.

Your arguement shave become rather dull in those respects due to how you view parsers in such a negative light. In addition you actually promote poor play in your arguement...which is disgusting, performing poorly ingame can literally be taken as a reflection of ones self out of game...because normally, a person will pursue a hobby as fervently as their real life goals.

A parser is an invaluable resource for those who want to improve.

[RobbieH]

@RobbieH

Reading your post has really disheartened my view on this games community.

Yes, the good old "they disagree with my point of view so they're toxic".

No wonder most people don't bother with forums, everyone comes with pitch forks right at the first sight if they disagree with their opinions.

I guess you never played PVP or even frequent the PVP forum either if you simply take a disagree as an insult.

While pro-parsers are advocating that a parser could potentially raise the level of players capability by allowing them to see real numbers behind a rotation they studied from a guide, in tandem also giving them confidence to pursue other things if they start to see that their numbers are lining up with above average parsers.

It bogs my mind how people just read whichever is the last page and make assumptions from there and then even bother to insult them by saying they're bad for the community while those people don't bother to read what started the arguments of the poster to begin with.

You clearly have no clue, but i'll bother with you anyway:

I never said that, how you call, "pro-parsers", shouldn't use parsers or that parsers wouldn't be helpful to them, those people are already doing fine.

What i said, is that parsers will cause toxicity towards bad players and won't teach bad players their rotations, and you're talking about people who already know what they're doing, seems about the same.

Your arguement shave become rather dull in those respects due to how you view parsers in such a negative light. In addition you actually promote poor play in your arguement...which is disgusting

I promote poor play? How so?

Have you ever helped anyone with their rotations like i did to begin with or you just like to insult people?

performing poorly ingame can literally be taken as a reflection of ones self out of game...because normally, a person will pursue a hobby as fervently as their real life goals.

Tell that to people with depression and playing video games, people with Depression for the most part have no life goals, yet i know some players with Depression that are great players.

A parser is an invaluable resource for those who want to improve.

Yes, but it's not going to make bad players good players, which is what i've been discussing.

[WeekendSoja]

@RobbieH

Your replies were actually pleasant to read till page 143. I am not able to relate to your example of people with depression, I live in a large community of military veterans who suffer from physical to mental inadequacies and the only reason they can perform ever day tasks and go above that is because they gave themselves goals to get there.

I can only assume you believe your opinion realistic and others are far to optimistic. Although your realism is stifled by the fact that WOW has been the best selling MMO even with its toxic community and accessibility to add-one.

I can agree with you that bad players will stay bad, but is it better to let them hide behind anonymity or give them a little push by letting others see their lack of performance? I believe the Ffxiv community has at least that much understanding.

[bardaboo]

I'm out. All you're doing is nitpicking, istead of seeing the message. Parsers are helpful. I would like one so i can see my numbers. Clearly that upsets you. Oh well. Good luck.

[bardaboo]

I'm out. All you're doing is nitpicking, istead of seeing the message. Parsers are helpful. I would like one so i can see my numbers. Clearly that upsets you. Oh well. Good luck.

[SpookyGhost]

[...]

Hi.

I was going to let my last post be my last post in this topic, but I'd just like to quickly clarify something.

Parsers give you information - they are strictly a tool meant to inform players of their DPS, HPS, and gDPS. They can even go further beyond this as shown from the way that FFLogs extrapolates data from ACT - you can now see boss ability timings in an easy visual format, the damage type of the boss' abilities (magical, physical, or darkness), and you can even see how your DPS/HPS/gDPS compares to other people playing your job/other groups.

This is all good information to have. If someone says "you're doing low DPS", you can now visually see how much lower and you can go to FFLogs to look up players above you in the same fight to see how they handle specific mechanics/what GCDs they use/CDs/etc.

There is absolutely no advantage to not having this information, especially when it is already available to most of the playerbase. Anything that "could" happen has already happened or was never going to happen. How ever toxic the community currently is, that is how it will remain if they implement an in-game parser. Nothing will change in that regard.

Now it's important to note that a parser is a tool. A bad player isn't going to suddenly learn how to be top percentile on FFLogs by just giving them a parser - they have to want to improve themselves and they still have to actively go out of their way to do that. What a parser does for them is it shows where they stand - they now know how much they need to improve and can use that information to help them do that. Without the parser they have to not only want to improve, but also convince other people to upload their parses to FFLogs just so they can have the same information as them.

In-game parsing, as it stands, is a QoL change. It is not the only change needed to make players better at the game, but it is information that will go a way to helping them - even if you interpret it as just a small nudge. People have wanted this implemented since 2.0, and we are now at the end of 3.0. I wouldn't say that parsing is a necessity and if implementing it takes place of something more important like the Intermediate Hall then I'd say push it aside until it can take the place of some other QoL thing. Because, imo, as far as QoL is concerned this is one of the most important features to implement. It should be at the top of the priority list, alongside in-game stat weight tooltips.

In conclusion there's nothing bad about implementing in-game parsing - it already exists for PC players, any perceived problems with it are already happening (or are never going to happen). I legitimately can't wrap my head around any argument against implementing an in-game parser, outside of "we used the resources for that on this more important thing". Anyway, like I said, last post so just to clarify I wanted to agree to disagree because I knew you'd do what you're doing now which is replying to everyone and their mother to defend your stance - imo that leads to more arguing than discussion and I don't really enjoy arguing. All the same, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm in no way saying you can't freely express it, I just really didn't want to go back and forth 500 times about this. Take care.

[Shurrikhan]

Snip

This.

A parser like ACT alone is good information, but it requires that the player already have a decent sense or memory of the context for its metrics produced. But with more information, it only gets better, and in that -- fairer.

If you want a "safe" measure for parsing, just parse "relative potency" instead. Although it increases secondary stat weights in appearance, it gives an obvious enough metric by which to compare players regardless of their ilvl, and can be set to take out the "RNG" of the rotation beyond actual procs (crits and the +/- 5% dmg all normalized).

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Snip.

Reading your posts has truly disheartened me regarding this game's community. All you do is promote the idea that it's impossible for anyone to improve without the hand holding and that is a parser, and you seek to undermine those who strove to improve on their own without hand holding...

Maybe that's why all our savage raids are so formulaic and barebones, testing nothing but a player's ability to memorise a simple dance.

[Deathgiver]

Reading your posts has truly disheartened me regarding this game's community. All you do is promote the idea that it's impossible for anyone to improve without the hand holding and that is a parser, and you seek to undermine those who strove to improve on their own without hand holding...

Maybe that's why all our savage raids are so formulaic and barebones, testing nothing but a player's ability to memorise a simple dance.

You don't raid... What makes you think you know how "formulaic and barebones" raiding is if you don't do it. You keep interjecting your un substantiated opinions about end game and the toxicity of the community into a thread that's asking for a tool to assist in people improving. You also seem to equate parsing to botting, when in reality I can accomplish the same thing with a spreadsheet and the chat log, given 30-60 minutes. It's a convenience, and it doesn't automatically make players 1337.