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  1. #81
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Why would there be anything wrong with Cleric Stance in party instances? Do we WANT a healer to be useless 80+% of the time?

    At that point, I'd feel obliged to trim out the healer entirely on any dungeon that we overgear enough to forgo it, or doesn't facilitate mass pulls anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lmcgyver View Post
    Exactly this. Healer DPS should be encouraged, not demanded.

    I never said cleric stance should be removed (heck, I even mentioned that I use it a lot), and even less so the utility of each healer. I'm just stating that, as long as people are not dying, a healer is fulfilling their requirement to the party. Dealing damage and buffing the party and are the marks of a healer who is confident and able to multi-task, which you have to be able to expect some are not capable of doing for whatever real-life reason (there are people who are genuinely terrified of things going downhill when they swap to cleric).
    Why shouldn't it? We demand that dps dodge and that tanks deal damage, so what is wrong with expecting that a healer be idle only insofar as is required for his mana? Heck, it's no different than if a dps just stopped attacking outright after having dealt x dps, or the tank didn't bother with more than a couple cooldowns ever. That's your output. The damage is just as much your toolkit as the heals. The healer has been the highest-output role in the game since 2.0. Why shouldn't it be maximized? I'm all for finally adding some cross-role synergy and requiring DPS to finally do something something extra, but we should always be looking to do more, not less. The purpose of the healer is the same as anything else: output. If someone dies, then the healer and to whatever degree that person's failure to dodge are to blame for the lost dps during death and across Weakness, but honestly if a DPS is doing some 20% of his or her theoretical dps, the healer's doing twice as much and would have to make a full cast to ressurect him, with only 30 seconds left in the fight, limited mana, and no need for that DPS in the remaining mechanics... you benefit your party more by ignoring the fallen and continuing to DPS.

    Your "role" is fluid. There is no hard "pledge" to sacrifice your party's progress or output in order to keep everyone alive or resurrected as quickly as possible. You keep people alive in order to further party progress and output.

    Mastering that concept, figuring out how to help your party to do its best through direct and indirect contribution is what makes healers fun for me, and I'd actually really like to see more of that. Imagine if you could use Aero to accelerate an allies movement speed for a brief moment as to stay in an AoE until the last possible moment to dodge it but still being able to safely do so by way of that movement buff. Or if you could use your earthen damage dealt to improve your following stoneskins, or even summon an LoSing earthen pillar with limited HP. It wouldn't be healing, but it would still be creative means for contribution, much like best weaving in our dps or allowing our tank to better weave in theirs is now.
    (6)

  2. #82
    Player
    CGMidlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,819
    Character
    Height Error
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    There is no fight in the game that doesn't have room for healers to contribute positively to DPS. Even the guy who solo healed A12S used cleric here and there.
    (8)

  3. #83
    Player
    Lmcgyver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    74
    Character
    Eyrlumi Kani
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    I feel like I am being misunderstood here, so let me try and make it clear; my stance is that healer DPS is fine as long as it does not interfere with the primary objective of keeping the party alive and clearing the content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    -Snip-
    If a healer is not confident in their ability to deal damage whilst keeping the party alive, then they should not be forced to do so. Sure, encourage them to do it, but never force them.
    This is nothing to do with dodging/mitigation (that's a part of any role), tanks dealing damage (that's a natural part of keeping enmity) or with DPS meeting a 'quota' (their job is to kill the enemy as fast as they can; "dealing 'x' damage" is 100% of the health of all enemies). Healers and tanks dealing additional damage should be an appreciated bonus, and not a demanded requirement (except in savage raiding, where every bit counts; but for regular instances, it really doesn't matter).

    EDIT: Anyway, I originally posted here in response to someone implying that it was not a healer's primary role to heal (because it is their primary role to heal). I did not come here to have an argument about whether or not a healer should be expected to DPS with arbitrary comparisons to what tanks and DPS are expected to be doing. If you think healers are required to DPS, well, I can't be bothered arguing with a difference of opinion any longer, especially seeing as it is not directly related to the topic at hand (namely disabling cleric stance in duties... which I vehemently disagree with).
    (4)
    Last edited by Lmcgyver; 10-27-2016 at 01:00 PM.

  4. #84
    Player
    Feyona's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    663
    Character
    Reigne Bo
    World
    Omega
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 70
    I'm a Scholar healer. I love heaing as one. I want to be classed as a healer, but on my realm I am only wanted as a dps/healer in statics. I do not enjoy stance dancing at all, and ijust want to heal, because that is the role I chose to play, and that is what I enjoy. I feel I am being constantly pressured to dps and it is ruining the game experience for me. To be classed as a healer I would have to play white mage or astrologian and I dont enjoy either as much as my scholar. I'm not sure of a solution, other than preventing dps in instances. I do think that if somone wants to dps they should roll as one. Maybe square could make a healer that dps to heal like disc priest in wow. Until then, I would love to be able to play the game the way I most enjoy and be accepted in farms and satic groups. Also, to add to what has already been mentioned, I am being forced to play a scholar as dps/healer because of amyth that scholars can't heal as well as the other two classes. I am going to disagree because I have found scholar to be a very powerful healer if played right. The only other reason I am given for not being cassed as healer is because we share our attributes with summoner. I do hope Square Enix does something for scholars so that they are not forced to play as only dps/healer. I am not confident enough to change to cleric in instances like as9. Where tanks can take an enourmous amont of damage very quickly . I dont really want to be stressed out by that Just want to have fun and enjoy the game please. Anyway I do think, or believe that the instances were designed to be cleared using the amount of dps they asked for.
    (2)
    Last edited by Feyona; 10-27-2016 at 11:02 AM.

  5. #85
    Player
    ckc22's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    490
    Character
    Tetsu Taru
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by platorepublic View Post
    I understand the use of cleric stance in solo content. Fine.

    Now if cleric stance is disabled in PvE dungeons/raids (like in PvP), the issue of people complaining you are not dpsing enough will dissipate, possibly.

    Yes you can still dps, but just not as much.

    Right now, I feel like in cleric stance, I can dps more than the casual dps, which means I am fulfilling two roles, healer AND dps. Which is not the intention, I believe.

    So should SE disable cleric stance in party instances?

    This is only in the standpoint of game design, and not numbers, or completing instances faster etc.
    So..... nerf all the healers because..... nothing?

    No.
    (5)

  6. #86
    Player
    Taika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,237
    Character
    Purple Rain
    World
    Sophia
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 32
    Quote Originally Posted by Lmcgyver View Post
    That's just the thing. The healer is not required to DPS, and so them not doing DPS does not require everyone else to put in more effort; rather, by a healer doing DPS everyone else ends up putting in less effort. I'm pretty sure that this is part of the reason there are lazy DPS around; they expect the healer to pick up the slack so they can do the bare minimum and get carried.
    DPS isn't a zero-sum game in which someone doing more DPS causes someone else to do less. So a healer doing DPS doesn't lower any other party member's DPS. In fact, the healer DPS increases the party DPS, but it can also increase the DPS of other party members, because the fights will be shorter and group members won't run out of resources (TP) and are likely to be able to utilise their rotations more effectively (for example, a SMN can get by only casting their DoTs once for each pull).

    Claiming healer doing DPS is causing DDs to slack is a bad argument. Not only because party DPS isn't a zero-sum game, but also because it's like saying no one should ever do more than their share of the damage or the others will be less motivated to do well. That's just not logical. You would not claim a DD should not do really good damage if they're capable of doing it because then the other DDs would start slacking. Or that a tank should not drop tank stance when its safe and put more effort into DPS because then DDs might do less. Additionally, the only instances in the game in which healers (and tanks) can take some DPS burden off the other group members are ones with difficult DPS checks, like certain Savage and extreme fights, and in these fights the DDs are already required to perform well enough that no one in their right mind would describe them as slacking.

    Furthermore, you're arguing for healers being able to slack (only use half of their toolkit) because not doing so might cause other group members to slack, which is just silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feyona View Post
    I'm a Scholar healer. I love heaing as one. I want to be classed as a healer, but on my realm I am only wanted as a dps/healer in statics. I do not enjoy stance dancing at all, and ijust want to heal, because that is the role I chose to play, and that is what I enjoy. I feel I am being constantly pressured to dps and it is ruining the game experience for me.
    I'm sorry you don't enjoy the way the healer jobs and fights are designed in this game. But it's because if you would be just healing, you would simply not be contributing as much as the rest of your group (since there is much less to heal and shield than there is to push DPS).

    Quote Originally Posted by Feyona View Post
    Also, to add to what has already been mentioned, I am being forced to play a scholar as dps/healer because of amyth that scholars can't heal as well as the other two classes.
    It's not because people imagine SCH isn't able to heal as well, it's because SCH has the biggest sustained DPS potential and they're able to use more healing abilities even in Cleric Stance through the fairy. Additionally, even if you would play the main healer role, you'd still be expected to DPS at least a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feyona View Post
    I am not confident enough to change to cleric in instances like as9. Where tanks can take an enourmous amont of damage very quickly .
    As a healer, you should know when the damage is coming and how hard it will hit, so you can prepare. It should not ever come as a surprise (unless someone else messes something up in which case it isn't your fault but theirs). Just start adding DPS windows to times when you know it's safe. When you do the fight more and your item level increases, you will be able to stay in cleric stance for longer and more often. Start with taking one step at a time. And DPS in A9S is just like picking the power generators there as a SCH: you're not actively healing then, but you're helping your group in another way and you know they're covered by the other healer.
    (4)
    Last edited by Taika; 10-27-2016 at 02:58 PM.

  7. #87
    Player
    Neophyte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    940
    Character
    Mim Silmaril
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    The problem with 'only healing' meta is, that the interaction with gear progression is really lame, because it doesn't work well with ABC (always be casting):
    Imagine you're only just able to heal Ravanah Ex at ilvl 170 with ~100% GCD activity only healing... the effect of more gear is: You just have to do less, having 100% GCD activity gets bad, because it only generates overheal.
    An ilvl 270 player in Ravanah Ex would just have to do a Regen and that's it. SCH and crit?
    "Wow, I had a crit adlo. Now I can do.. nothing, oh yeah."

    The effectivness of Tanks and DPS abilities doesnt do that. More DPS is still good, using CDs for spike damage is still good, even when you would live without it... having a GCD running all the time is good, a proper dpd/tank will still use the most skills of their toolkit with higher gear.

    "Wow, the healer A12s weapon dropped. Now I can do less things while we kill it in the same time. Awesome."
    (2)
    Last edited by Neophyte; 10-27-2016 at 03:47 PM.

  8. #88
    Player
    Parawill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Lavender Beds
    Posts
    366
    Character
    Spark Joy
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 80
    Tl;dr: Removing Cleric Stance would require a change in the MP Costs of our DPS spells because it is simply not worth it mathematically in terms of both MP and time (GCDs).

    Just going to point out that if Cleric Stance was removed, the MP costs of a healer's DPS toolkit should be cut by over 80%. Having such high MP costs for such a low return in investment (damage) completely makes it not worth DPSing in the first place. To put things in perspective, I cannot one-shot a level 15 mob at iLvL 255 with my level 60 WHM with a Stone III. It takes me three Stone IIIs to kill one level 15 monster (non-firefly from clams) in Satasha Normal Mode, UNSYNCED!

    If we look at Savage Content, Alexander Prime has around 8million hit points. With my pathetic non-cleric's (and non-crit) Stone III damage of 380'ish average, I am basically spending 530 MP to do 0.00475% of the boss' health. So to even do 1% of the boss' health, a White Mage would have to spend around:

    Code:
    If Alexander Prime (Savage)'s max HP is 8,000,000 and 1% of his HP pool is 80,000. How many Stone III's would it take to deal 1% of its hitpoints?
    
    80,000 / 380 
    = 210.5263157894737 * (MP Cost of Stone 3) 530
    = 111,578.9473684211
    = Basically 111,578 MP.
    Therefore, it would require 210 casts of Stone III to do 1% of Alexander Prime (Savage)'s MP, which costs 111,578 MP. In addition, if we factor in cast times of 2.35 seconds (average with the amount of spell speed we have access to)...
    Code:
    210 casts * 2.35 Cast Time
    = 493.5
    It would also take 493.5 seconds to do that much damage, which is around 8 minutes.

    As for MP costs... With my current pool of 16k MP, and 20% MAX MP Regen per minute...
    Code:
    16,000 MAX MP. 2% Natural Refresh = 320 per 3 seconds.
    
    Total Refresh per minute is 6,400 * 8 minutes is...
    51,200
    
    Total Shroud of Saints MAXIMUM MP Tick Regen is 707 * 5 Ticks
    = 3535 * 3 uses (because the fourth use would be beyond the 8 minutes)
    = 10,605
    
    Assize MP Refresh is 10%. 493.5 / 90 second CD
    = 5.4 usages, rounding down to 5
    = 1,600 * 5 
    = 8,000
    
    Total MP Refresh from Tool-Kit
    = Total MP + Natural Refresh + Shroud of Saints Refresh + Assize Refresh
    = 16,000 + 51,200 + 10,605 + 8,000
    = 85,805 (+1700 from HQ Max Ether)
    = 87,505
    Not enough MP to actually do 1% of a Savage Boss' hit points. >_> While I do know that Aero 3 and Aero 2 exists, I'm pretty sure even with those DoTs, we'd still not have enough MP to do at least 1% of its MAX HP.

    EDIT: Also, just gonna point this out too. If healer DPS is completely removed, content would be cleared slower, and the need for DPS to actual to do proper rotations spikes up beyond belief. So in the event where Clerics Stance is removed, DPS cannot slack whatsoever and must play really efficiently. Looking at how duty finder is already, I can almost guarantee you that some players will struggle doing not just trials or raids, but dungeons when running across the DPS classes that some healers are currently out DPSing.

    That ain't gonna look pretty.
    (5)
    Last edited by Parawill; 10-27-2016 at 03:47 PM.

  9. #89
    Player
    Neophyte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    940
    Character
    Mim Silmaril
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Parawill View Post
    EDIT: Also, just gonna point this out too. If healer DPS is completely removed, content would be cleared slower, and the need for DPS to actual to do proper rotations spikes up beyond belief. So in the event where Clerics Stance is removed, DPS cannot slack whatsoever and must play really efficiently. Looking at how duty finder is already, I can almost guarantee you that some players will struggle doing not just trials or raids, but dungeons when running across the DPS classes that some healers are currently out DPSing.

    That ain't gonna look pretty.
    Thing is, this issue isn't about CS at all.

    It's all about "only healing" or "also doing dps".

    E.g. if they get rid of CS they could just make the potencies of damaging spells higher on healers.
    Or (more likely, because of SCH/SMN sharing same abilities) making MND the main stat for healer damage.

    You don't need math to proof that without CS with current damage numbers it would take an eternity to kill something and that it wouldn't be mp efficient, lol. xD

    __________


    My favourite change would be:

    Main stat for damage is MND. CS gives a +50%/-50% buff/debuff on damage/heals (potencies adjusted to be balanced) and a boost to accuracy. Higher CD to make it more difficult to use, because of the overall beneficial change to healer dps.

    It would be more similar to tank stance dancing: Always using all of your GCDs and CDs when appropiate, but when the situation allows it you can adjust your stance for extra dps.

    A healer not comfortable with stance dancing can still do dps on a level which is not totally negligible (like a tank unneccesarily staying in tank stance), a healer which is comfy can still do very good dps.
    (2)
    Last edited by Neophyte; 10-27-2016 at 04:11 PM.

  10. #90
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,647
    Character
    Noah Orih
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    To be honest, I'd rather Cleric Stance get cut with the Healer's scaling changing to mind, and the base potencies of healer actions buffed to compensate for the loss of Cleric Stance's damage boost loss.

    I get that it's there to be a control gate that requires players to pick when they can DPS, but it's eating a spot on my hot bar just to make my job a little more complicated. Any opportunity I have to clear up a spot on the hot bar in a reasonable way is worth looking into in my book.
    (2)

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