Spoilers - plus help I don't understand the warriors of darkness storyline

[Rocl]

rise up

STEP BACK THE BOOM'S ABOUT TA PUT YOU IN A

[Naria]

Personally, I assume it's another correlation/causation thing. Look at what usually happens after a Calamity - a huge amount of people die, the land becomes uninhabitable, and the survivors scatter to the wind with what pitiful knowledge and technology they can steward through the strife. Who is going to cause any noteworthy measure of chaos? And with what? The delay between previous calamities was likely allow enough people to come together with enough resources and enough motivations to actually get the chaos ball rolling again.

Thanks to Louisoix we still have plenty of civilizations, technologies, and peoples ready to rise up and [insert cause here].

No delay necessary.

That is the simplest explanation. Like I said I'm probably giving the Ascians way too much credit, or perhaps over simplifying things. My first instinct is to look at the 1500 years of the Sixth Astral and be like "What were you people doing the entire time? Taking a long coffee break?" Thus I event reasons for why they didn't try to start a calamity as soon as civilization got its feet back under it. Eh, for all I know the Sil'dah/Ul'dah zombie not-really-an-apocalypse could have been an attempt to start a calamity.

[TinyRedLeaf]

This is as yet a half-formed idea, so it's going to be challenging to put it accurately into words. Please bear with me.

First of all, Naria and Cilia raised a very plausible theory that the Ascians trigger Calamities to drain massive amounts of aether from the Source, and force it to lower or break through the aetherial barriers, and re-absorb the shard worlds, to compensate for the loss.

And now, we also know that it's very important for a balance of light and darkness to exist in the shard worlds, so that the optimal amount of aether is returned to the Source.

We don't know how the Ascians on the shard worlds are achieving this, but we do know that, for whatever reason, there are agents of light in at least one of the shard worlds, who are actively fighting against the darkness, and even winning against it overwhelmingly.

Now, if the Ascian goal is to effect a returning of aether from the shard worlds, I wonder how this is different from what the Source is currently doing, with regard to absorbing the excess light from the First. Isn't this also a rejoining of sorts?

I mean, given the Ascians' association with darkness, my assumption until now was that returning Zodiark to the Source would flood the world with darkness. Or, at the very least, give Him an upper hand over Hydaelyn.

It now seems that this wasn't the actual goal. It seems that aether with an optimal balance in polarities is absolutely essential for a successful Rejoining.

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Which brings me back to what the great bearded one, Ramuh, once told the WoL, back in 2.3:

Thy conflicts have brought naught but anguish and misery unto the forest. All blame doth lie with the darkness that resideth in the breast of man. In the beginning, no such duality existed. Were light and dark given form when man was born? It would explain much. Not least why strife and sorrow follow ever in thy wake.

And the Word of the Mother said, in 3.2:

Before there was life, in the depths of the aetherial sea, Light and Dark did once dwell as one. But the Darkness coveted power, and the balance was broken. Thus was I forced to banish Him unto the distant heavens, to forever remain apart.

Based on the quotes above, it would seem that it was the (I'm assuming spontaneous) creation of mortal life that destabilised Light and Darkness. And it may be the case that, "before there was life", Hydaelyn and Zodiark did not actually exist. At least, not as distinct entities, but rather as a merged entity with an entirely different nature (and quite possibly, an entirely different name).

This could explain Zodiark's absolute contempt for mortal life. As far as He's concerned, it was mortal desire that led to the sundering. To Him, all mortal life is an ugly aberration (hence Ramuh's musing), and that's why He couldn't care less if all mortals are wiped out in the process of rejoining the worlds.

This would also explain why Hydaelyn did not create aetherial emissaries of Her own until now. To do so would have undermined Her own goal of protecting the embodiment of Light: mortal life. And it may explain why She favours mortal champions over aetherial agents. It's simply in Her nature to do so.

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I've lost track of the actual quotes, but I remember a number of references to Order and Chaos, I believe in obscure parts of the MSQ. Is it possible then that, before there was Light and Darkness, the only duality that existed was that between Order and Chaos? Is this possibly the original nature of the merged entity that was Hydaelyn and Zodiark as One? (This hypothesis depends on whether Hydaelyn has ever been explicitly associated with Order; I don't recall so.)

That's my speculation for now. It would be interesting if that were true, because it harkens back to the alignment system first popularised by Dungeons & Dragons, the grand-daddy of all role-playing games: Law <--> Chaos; Good <--> Evil.

Order and chaos, in this conception, is not synonymous with good and evil, respectively. In fact, too much Order could lead to evil (eg, tyranny, or Lawful Evil), while Chaos could also be a force for good (eg, individual freedom, or Chaotic Good).

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By the by, I think it would be great to have a new thread that consolidates the various discussions on FFXIV's cosmology, since from what I can tell, this thread about the necessity of "neutrality" also touches on the nature of light and darkness in Hydaelyn and beyond. (That thread, incidentally, was the inspiration for most of my musings above.)

There's also the related discussion on the nature of the so-called Void, which makes reference to the Ascians' goal of preventing another world from falling completely to either polarity.

[Cilia]

That's actually my line of thinking: it's not so much that a length of time (millennia) have to pass between Rejoinings, but there just isn't enough chaos to cause enough of a deficiency to overcome the dimensional barrier that separates a Reflection from the Source.

Normally it does take that long because civilization has to rebuild, but this time that's not the case.

Probably overthinking this. Have bad tendency to do that.

[Anonymoose]

Based on the quotes above, it would seem that it was the (I'm assuming spontaneous) creation of mortal life that destabilised Light and Darkness. And it may be the case that, "before there was life", Hydaelyn and Zodiark did not actually exist. At least, not as distinct entities, but rather as a merged entity with an entirely different nature (and quite possibly, an entirely different name).

I think this would be at odds with the Gerun Oracles, which implies that life was created after the division (out of fear of Zodiark).

But we've been lied to about the order of events before. Remember that time the Ishgardians left out two hundred years and glued their arrival in Coerthas immediately to the slaying of Thordan?

[TinyRedLeaf]

Well, maybe Louisoix was simply mistaken?

The essential conundrum is this: Why would Zodiark, the avatar of Darkness, care so much about maintaining a balance of Light and Dark in the shard words? What would a successful rejoining of perfectly balanced worlds result in, other than a perfect balance of power between Him and Hydaelyn?

If the Word and Louisoix were to be believed, then it ought to be the case that Zodiark would seek the upper hand, after the Rejoining. After all, it was allegedly because Zodiark desired power that Hydaelyn forced the sundering. Would a covetous entity be content with being a mere equal to His counterpart?

[Cilia]

It's pretty simple, actually: a proper balance produces the greatest amount of raw aether when a Reflection is Rejoined, and the Ascians are going for an optimal amount. The Void probably could be Rejoined, but aside from potentially unleashing massive devastation on the Source the balance is not right to get a good return. It would be very low, if there was a gain at all, and the Ascians are seeking to resurrect or revive Zodiark. They'll try and get an optimal amount of aether out of every Reflection; Elidibus was not wrong when he said that the events of 3.4 can be played to the Ascians' advantage. The First Shard was originally going to be erased in a Flood of Light; now that Minfilia is there working to restore the proper balance, a Rejoining can occur that gives a better return.

If X amount of raw aether is spent trying to Rejoin a Reflection and you get X- aether in return (from, say, a Void), it isn't beneficial to the Ascians' goals. That's the basic principle behind why they want to keep Reflections from becoming Voids like the Thirteenth.

Hypothetically. Maybe theoretically.

EDIT
The essential paradox that arises from this hypothesis is "but Hydaelyn is always bleeding aether, isn't she? A Rejoining should be beneficial to her, right?" Well... yes, but it can be resolved with the information we have.

But [Zodiark] coveted power, and the balance was broken. Thus was [Hydaelyn] forced to banish Him unto the distant heavens, to forever remain apart. A moon bound.

Now... this is saying verbatim that Zodiark's corporeal body is the moon, and it's coming from the Goddess so there's very, very little room for interpretation. As Hydaelyn is at once the Goddess, the Mothercrystal, and the planet... it would stand to reason that Zodiark is at once the Dead God, the Dark Crystal seen in 2.0's ending, and the moon. Their crystalline forms only exist on in the Aetherial Sea as far as we know - representations of their physical celestial bodies. All the Ascians would need to do is direct the flow of aether from a Rejoining to Zodiark... not hard with Hydaelyn being abused as she is... and boom, Zodiark gets more powerful.

(His "dead" status also explains why the moon is a barren, lifeless rock. Hypothetically it could support life like Hydaelyn, but without aether to create any sort of atmosphere or lifestream... but I digress.)

Hypothetically. Or maybe theoretically.

Somebody stop me if I've jumped on the crazy train.

[Anonymoose]

Well, maybe Louisoix was simply mistaken?

Louisoix was just quoting the Gerun Oracles, no? The actual tome seems to predate him considerably.

Why would Zodiark, the avatar of Darkness, care so much about maintaining a balance of Light and Dark in the shard words? What would a successful rejoining of perfectly balanced worlds result in, other than a perfect balance of power between Him and Hydaelyn?

If I'm reading it correctly, an imbalance in the shard worlds leads to the aether being out-and-out destroyed, whereas keeping equilibrium until the Ardor ensures that the aether will be transferred (rejoined) rather than lost. Recall that Elidibus brushed off being outwitted and allowing Hydaelyn to both regain some strength and create an emissary by pointing out that a whole reflection's worth of aether would not be lost to void, and that this would eventually benefit Zodiark.

My question is ... why does the Ardor empower Zodiark now and leave Hydaelyn weak now? Was Elidibus lying to the Warriors of Darkness when he claimed that this aether returns to the Lifestream? Or are Hydaelyn and the Lifestream not as linked as we thought?

I feel like it's a simple thing but that a previous assumption is blocking my view...

Or I'm just wrong, lol.

But you've reminded me! I have a new poem to translate, don't I...
Nevermind - poem only exists in English, lol.

[Theodric]

Hydaelyn didn't step in sooner because frankly she's kind of terrible at this whole Mother Goddess business; she screwed-up in the initial Sundering and it's just been a cavalcade of well-meaning but ditsy "woops!" moments ever since.

Heh. This made me laugh a lot more than it should have - and I strongly believe that you're onto something there. I think it applies to the Warrior of Light and Scions as well - albeit to a lesser extent - given their lack of regard to the consequences of their actions. Especially in regards to bringing about sweeping cultural and political changes.

[Belhi]

So by creating a massive aetherial disturbance or deficit on the Source, the barriers between it and a Reflection are ovecome by the Source's need to fill that deficit... and a Reflection is Rejoined to compensate...

... yeah, sounds logical.

Unfortunately it happens to kill everyone living on that reflection.

I think one thing to keep in mind when considering Hydaelyn's actions is this whole reflection world thing probably wasn't a well planned out or carefully implemented process. If her side of things are true, it was a desperate measure she took to keep Zodiark from taking over. Because of that her control and influence over the whole setup is likely far from optimal.