As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[FunkyBunch]

Sounds like you're pretty proud of yourself here. Congratulations on being able to DPS on Scholar, the easiest of the jobs to Stance Dance with, after playing two DPS jobs to level 60.

Clearly those healers who cannot DPS anywhere close to you are bad at healing when they keep everyone alive throughout the run.

That's not even close to what I said, or meant. I have never once said that anyone should play as well as me. I said that zero DPS is not acceptable. And that ZERO ZERO ZERO DPS makes them bad at healing. If you do just a bit of DPS and are trying to not be a lazy butt wipe, I'm a happy camper. If you want to do nothing for 30 minutes, go play something else.
I'm leveling WHM as well, but it's only level 34 so I'm not commenting on how that is later. I'll let you know when I hit 60 on it. But I don't plan on not DPSing. Because Aero3 and Holy.
Just as an FYI, when I'm with my friends I don't take out my fairy (you know for fun) so I practice Healing/DPSing without a crutch. If I can do it as a SCH without a pet, you should bloody well be able to as anything, SCH is the most gimped when it doesn't have a pet.

Yes, I fully realize that Hall of the Novice places emphasis on Healing. I never, ever, ever said it didn't. I said the Hall of the Novice says "there may be time to weave in some offensive magicks" (thank you for finding that I was looking for it online but couldn't find it), which means get off your butt and do some DPS when you have nothing else to do.

The difference between you and I, is that I saw a problem, and addressed the problem by doing it myself. And you know it's a problem and pretend it's not a problem and get mad at anyone who says it's a problem.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

That's not even close to what I said, or meant. I have never once said that anyone should play as well as me. I said that zero DPS is not acceptable. And that ZERO ZERO ZERO DPS makes them bad at healing.

Except with all of the evidence about how this game is designed and the quotes mentioned in-game so far, it actually is perfectly acceptable. Maybe for the people of your side of the argument it isn't, but don't act like the fanbase that holds this opinion is how the developers designed the game when everything stated by Yoshi and in-game states otherwise as mentioned in my previous post.

This is a fan opinion on what is mandatory, not how the game is intended to be designed. And honestly, it's kind of hilarious you're using terms like "not acceptable" when you can accomplish a run without it just fine, it really goes to show how overly serious you are taking this.

If you do just a bit of DPS and are trying to not be a lazy butt wipe, I'm a happy camper. If you want to do nothing for 30 minutes, go play something else.

Because people healing = not wanting to play. Okay. lol With how motivated you are about this argument, perhaps you should in fact play something else if it bothers you this much that you want people to stop playing?

Yes, I fully realize that Hall of the Novice places emphasis on Healing. I never, ever, ever said it didn't.

You stated that "It's not outside their initial role.", which is in fact false. As stated previously, the game itself states, once again, that their primary or "initial role" is to heal. You can't interpret this in any other way just to suit your argument, that is what the game itself explains to you.

which means get off your butt and do some DPS when you have nothing else to do.

No, It does not mean that at all, and once again you and people like you try to spin the words to mean what you wish them to be instead of what they actually are.



How do you go from "may be time to weave in some offensive magicks" to "get off your butt and do some DPS". It's literally just implying that "you can potentially DPS if you have the time", nothing more.

The difference between you and I, is that I saw a problem, and addressed the problem by doing it myself. And you know it's a problem and pretend it's not a problem and get mad at anyone who says it's a problem.

I find it quite amusing that you're saying I'm upset when weren't you the one freaking out several times with caps just because of a different view and implying I was "missing your point"?

OMFG, you are totally, AGAIN 100% missing the point. We are NOT TALKING ABOUT OPTIMAL DPS HERE. We're saying DO JUST A LITTLE BIT PRETTY PLEASE.

The irony continues when you've missed my point several times in this discussion, choosing to ignore said point only because it differs from your own view.

I'm not "pretending" it isn't a problem, that's you trying to force your opinion as factually correct when it isn't. I could make the same argument about you "pretending" that this game is 100% designed with Healer DPS in mind and that you also "pretending" that if you don't DPS as healer, you are terrible and should play a different game.

Sorry, I do not agree with you, I do not agree with Reddit on this view either, nor this thread when Yoshi-P and the quotes in-game have said all the otherwise, including the conjurer storyline which so many people misconstrue as a Healer not wanting to DPS, when it literally was about her just using her life energy instead.

And as one final note, you seem to have me confused here. I've been a capped WHM doing DPS since before you ever played this game, and as a matter of fact, I DPS'd before I knew it was considered "mandatory" by the those of a certain opinion because I enjoyed the immense damage I do in AoE situations, and to this day I still do DPS when I can.

This is my final comment on this issue as I've covered all of the arguments I wish to have, people will upvote whom they wish and that's fine, but I'd like people to remember that their view is what they perceive the game to be and not what the game is intending by neither the devs, nor Yoshi-P. If you don't believe me, go back and read my previous posts in this thread with links to what has been said in game and out of the game.

Until this game is designed with Healer DPS in mind, it will continue to be an optional bonus for those who are capable of doing it, enjoy doing it, or wanting to play as optimal as they can. It will not be "mandatory" until then, and if you're a Healer that doesn't DPS outside of Raid content and keep everyone alive, you are not a bad Healer, you just aren't the most optimal Healer, but you aren't bad and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. You can strive to DPS someday if you so wish as it helps, but don't ever feel it's mandatory outside of Raids or certain Party Finders.

[Taika]

Except with all of the evidence about how this game is designed and the quotes mentioned in-game so far, it actually is perfectly acceptable.

When you're arguing about what the game's design supports, it doesn't matter what Yoshi P has said in an interview or what in game tips say. What matters is how the actual game works: how much damage is incoming in fights, how much potency do healing skills have etc. The actual design of the game - the game itself, its content, abilities - strongly support healer DPS. If they didn't, we wouldn't have this "argument" in the first place.

When we look at the game's design, there is no sensible argument against healer DPS, but there are many for it. It literally makes no sense to not DPS as a healer apart from very specific circumstances.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

When you're arguing about what the game's design supports, it doesn't matter what Yoshi P has said in an interview or what in game tips say. What matters is how the actual game works: how much damage is incoming in fights, how much potency do healing skills have etc. The actual design of the game - the game itself, its content, abilities - strongly support healer DPS. If they didn't, we wouldn't have this "argument" in the first place.

When we look at the game's design, there is no sensible argument against healer DPS, but there are many for it. It literally makes no sense to not DPS as a healer apart from very specific circumstances.

The thing with that is, as you said, "What matters is how the actual game works", the actual design of game itself is not designed around Healer DPS. It actually matters quite a bit what Yoshi-P has said because he literally explained that no part of the game has been designed with Healer DPS in mind. That means there is no party content in the game designed for you to take part in the battle, so your point that the game is strongly supporting Healer DPS isn't true.

Additional DPS is better and will always be better, but the game isn't designed with it in mind and thus it is not supported in the sense you are claiming.

[Taika]

The thing with that is, as you said, "What matters is how the actual game works", the actual design of game itself is not designed around Healer DPS. It actually matters quite a bit what Yoshi-P has said because he literally explained that no part of the game has been designed with Healer DPS in mind. That means there is no party content in the game designed for you to take part in the battle, so your point that the game is strongly supporting Healer DPS isn't true.

Additional DPS is better and will always be better, but the game isn't designed with it in mind and thus it is not supported in the sense you are claiming.

The game is designed to support healer DPS because all healer jobs have a lot of DPS skills (and Cleric Stance). WHM and SCH also have DPS abilities that directly support their primary role in healing, damage mitigation and MP recovery (Holy, Assize, Shadowflare, Energy Drain). The incoming damage in fights isn't high enough to keep healers busy if they only heal (and it wouldn't make sense to claim that healers are designed just to stand still most of the time when any other job isn't). Additionally, the hardest content in the game requires healer DPS for clears when it's added - no matter what Yoshi said. There are also mechanics in casual dungeons that are clearly designed with DPSing healer in mind (for example in Antitower when DDs are turned into dolls - if tanks and healers won't DPS them and instead just "heal" and "tank", the whole party dies, and yes it's 2 DDs every time, it's scripted). These all prove that the game design in fact strongly supports DPS as a part of healer's role.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

The game is designed to support healer DPS because all healer jobs have a lot of DPS skills (and Cleric Stance). WHM and SCH also have DPS abilities that directly support their primary role in healing, damage mitigation and MP recovery (Holy, Assize, Shadowflare, Energy Drain). The incoming damage in fights isn't high enough to keep healers busy if they only heal (and it wouldn't make sense to claim that healers are designed just to stand still most of the time when any other job isn't). Additionally, the hardest content in the game requires healer DPS for clears when it's added - no matter what Yoshi said. There are also mechanics in casual dungeons that are clearly designed with DPSing healer in mind (for example in Antitower when DDs are turned into dolls - if tanks and healers won't DPS them and instead just "heal" and "tank", the whole party dies). These all prove that the game design in fact strongly supports DPS as a part of healer's role.

Those moves were designed for you to be able to handle the singleplayer content as without them, Healers wouldn't be able to progress through the story. Once again, it does very much matter what Yoshi is stating here because you are making the claim that because Healers have DPS options, that means they are intended for party content, except that it's been confirmed on two separate occasions that the game is not designed around Healer's DPS options in party content. With the incoming damage, that could very well just be because this game has a lot of casual aspects designed in mind. I've ran into many Healers as DRK that even struggle with the current DPS in place.

As far as Assize goes, you could very well make the claim that it's designed for a WHM to be able to handle FATEs if they run out of MP, or that it's designed so you don't just spam Holy in FATEs as Holy was nerfed once again before Assize. Holy was also nerfed initially because to "ease the burden on Healers who feel they have to DPS", something along those lines. With Antitower, that's designed for 2 random people, not specifically DPS, it's just an option that can happen. I don't think that demonstrates your message that it "strongly supports DPS as a part of healer's role.".

There really is nothing to outright support your claim as of this current moment.

[Taika]

Literally the way every single content in this game is designed and played supports healer DPS and nothing supports only healing. You can try to go out of your way to try to find alternative explanations for it (like, I don't know, aliens?), but as we all know the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

How do you go from "may be time to weave in some offensive magicks" to "get off your butt and do some DPS". It's literally just implying that "you can potentially DPS if you have the time", nothing more.

This caption defeats your own argument. If the group isn't in need of healing, you're expressly being told to contribute DPS, albeit in a roundabout manner. "If you have the time" is intended to imply just that: do you have time to DPS or will another hard hitting mechanic happen? If the answer to the latter is no, you should be DPSing. The Conjurer questline may as well beat you over the head with the sentiment of "don't just heal!" That being said, you can certainly refuse to stance dance to your fancy. Just don't expect me to dodge aoes or use my full toolkit. After all, why should I go beyond the basics of my job requirements if you aren't going to be arsed to? People accuse healers refusing to DPS as lazy because more often than not they are jumping around or just standing still-- literally doing nothing until the tank takes the smallest bit of damage.

[Greedalox]

And honestly, it's kind of hilarious you're using terms like "not acceptable" when you can accomplish a run without it just fine,

I feel like your other points were handled but nobody seemed to point out this line I don't think. This is an incredibly harmful view to the player base- shoot for the floor. You can have a dps or 2 afk the whole run and still have it completed within the 90 minute time frame, but does that make it right because it was accomplished? It's a silly concept to defend the idea of be the worst you can be because we'll still win.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

Literally the way every single content in this game is designed and played supports healer DPS and nothing supports only healing. You can try to go out of your way to try to find alternative explanations for it (like, I don't know, aliens?), but as we all know the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Actually, I could very well make that same argument with you. The difference here is that I'm using actual facts and you're trying to use conjecture, and in response to your conjecture, I'm throwing conjecture right back at you. Nothing you are saying is absolute as the game is literally not being designed with Healer DPS in mind. Just because you feel what you're saying is true doesn't mean it actually is and you don't have the proof to make such claims.

Good lord, not again.

Can't be bothered to rehash this again so soon.

There's plenty of information and opinion in the previous 40+ pages of discussion that explains why healers who refuse to contribute DPS to a party for reasons other than difficulty meeting the healing requirement or lack of experience are playing selfishly and suboptimally.

That bit about Assize and FATEs...I can't. Pass.

And I've covered most of those and have also explained why it's merely a bonus and not mandatory, yet the "For DPS" side of the argument keeps reusing their argument because they, as you've just proven right now, cannot stand anyone that doesn't agree with their view on this aspect of the game. No, I'm not going to agree Healers that do this are selfish, I'd honestly argue those who consider it "selfish" to not Healer DPS in a 4 man dungeon to be selfishly dictating how someone plays, even if they are going with the intended design of the game. I've seen time and time again on this topic that if someone disagrees, that a number of people will come into the conversation to tell you your view is wrong and that you should conform to their view instead of merely stating this is how you can potentially be optimal, and if they disagree, it's met with scorn.

So go ahead, pass, but all this is showing is another example of someone being on their high horse because their view is the most correct and all others should conform to it and if they don't, they're "bad players".

This caption defeats your own argument. If the group isn't in need of healing, you're expressly being told to contribute DPS, albeit in a roundabout manner. "If you have the time" is intended to imply just that: do you have time to DPS or will another hard hitting mechanic happen? If the answer to the latter is no, you should be DPSing. The Conjurer questline may as well beat you over the head with the sentiment of "don't just heal!" That being said, you can certainly refuse to stance dance to your fancy. Just don't expect me to dodge aoes or use my full toolkit. After all, why should I go beyond the basics of my job requirements if you aren't going to be arsed to? People accuse healers refusing to DPS as lazy because more often than not they are jumping around or just standing still-- literally doing nothing until the tank takes the smallest bit of damage.

If it said "If you have the time, you should throw in offensive magicks" or if it said "If you have the time, you must use offensive magicks in-between Healing to properly fulfill your role.", then it would imply what you are saying it would imply. However, it doesn't. It states "you may". They carefully worded that for a reason I'm certain, because with dialogue like that It's continuing how it is an optional thing, even when you have the time they still are referring to it as "may". It also goes along with a lot of the quotes I've posted earlier by Yoshi-P in this thread with how he views Healer DPS in this game.

To be quite honest, Healer is the only class in this game that literally is doing two separate roles on a consistent basis, and you probably will disagree with this, but I do not consider standing in AoEs the same as a Healer going out of their way to Cleric Stance and DPS. All classes have to avoid AoEs, including the Healer so that isn't a proper comparison, and as a DRK main, I consider my role to be achieving enmity and using my cooldowns at the right time, the primary role. DPS's primary role is to DPS, and Healer is to heal as stated in-game and well, with common sense, the title "Healer".

When you start going above this, which is honestly nice and I've been doing it ever since I was a fledgling Dragoon in this game, you start using abilities that do generally what are outside of your primary role, like say Second Wind on Bard that can generally help, or in certain fights a Keen Flurry to help mitigate 15ish% damage from a single attack, this is you going above and beyond your typical role in a party. In Healer's case, they generally have to go above and beyond far more than any other role in the game because of the potential of their DPS, it's generally why people praise Healer DPS because it can speed up a run several minutes if done properly and with a semi experienced Tank and DPS. It's also why you never see someone complain if a Bard didn't pop Second Wind when it could've kept them alive in certain moments.

With all of that said, this goes back to my original point. If you are achieving your most important aspect of your role, with the way this game is balanced, then you aren't being a "bad" player, just not the most optimal one. Until this game is designed with Healer DPS in mind, it will remain that way.

I feel like your other points were handled but nobody seemed to point out this line I don't think. This is an incredibly harmful to the player base view- shoot for the floor. You can have a dps or 2 afk the whole run and still have it completed within the 90 minute time frame, but does that make it right because it was accomplished? It's a silly concept to defend the idea of be the worst you can be because we'll still win.

Healer's aren't "AFK" if they are keeping everyone alive throughout the run and I feel that is an over exaggeration and a commonly used argument in this case. What happens when you AFK as DPS? Nothing dies. What happens when you AFK as Healer? You and the party die. That is an AFK Healer.

And this slippery slope argument that a Healer continuing to Heal is the same as a DPS sitting in AoEs and taking 90 minutes to finish the run is positively an improper comparison. Not only does none of that argument fit, but let's say for a second I'll entertain the argument for the sake of debate. People who are "bad" at the game will continue to remain that way regardless of the heckling done by players like yourself or others.

I've never seen in this game someone being told to DPS as Healer and they just start doing it, so at least in my experience, merely telling someone they can DPS in a run will almost never get them to do anything and thus for the sake of this improper argument I have to very clearly say, there is nothing to fear.

Your concept of "worst" is also a very black and white view and once again the issue I have with this thread and this argument. You are either good or terrible if you do or don't DPS as Healer and that goes to show why It's a flawed view in itself. There is no in-between, there is no "Well he's really good at healing, but I wish he would DPS." It's either you're bad for not doing it or not. No other role has this kind of criticism, and it's only because of the potency.