Should PLD and WAR get gap-closers at 70?

[Lyth]

I said "drk's flash" meaning their version of it. And yes, it does damage.

DRK's version of Flash? As in the untraited version? As I mentioned before, DRK's version of Flash is a GLD cross-class skill which generates enmity, but does no damage and doesn't apply a blind effect.

I don't mind seeing people suggesting balance changes on jobs that they haven't yet had a chance to level, so long as they have a genuine interest in theorycrafting. But looking up the skill names is a good start, in order to facilitate discussion. Allow me to suggest that vague descriptors such as "that scary red puddle of darkness with the spikes coming out of it" might provide some small measure of clarity in a pinch, if you're really stuck (actually, that probably describes half of the moves in DRK's kit, but we can try our best.)

But this is a gap closer discussion, so I'll defer any further mention of this subject to the other thread.

[ADVSS]

probably just meant "spammable aoe threat generating ability" tbh

[Kages]

DRK's version of Flash? As in the untraited version? As I mentioned before, DRK's version of Flash is a GLD cross-class skill which generates enmity, but does no damage and doesn't apply a blind effect.

He probably meant DRK's version of Flash as in DRK's Unleash, as Flash and Unleash are functionally nearly equivalent (self-centered AoE with increased enmity generation). They ofc also differ: While Unleash does damage, Flash does not. Flash does blind (added mitigation), which Unleash doesn't. Also Flash is using a ressource that PLD doesn't need to manage as much (MP).

[Lyth]

He probably meant DRK's version of Flash as in DRK's Unleash, as Flash and Unleash are functionally nearly equivalent (self-centered AoE with increased enmity generation). They ofc also differ: While Unleash does damage, Flash does not. Flash does blind (added mitigation), which Unleash doesn't. Also Flash is using a ressource that PLD doesn't need to manage as much (MP).

Unleash also has spikes coming out of it, which is why it does damage. With Flash, you invite the mobs over to take a commemorative photo with you. It's a much more friendly affair which is more MP and battery efficient.

I'm secretly hoping that some clever person will try to argue that Enhanced Unleash procs don't cost MP. Then we can have a follow-up discussion on why we ought to give PLD free Flashes off of Shield Lob.

[P4X0R10N]

I think pvp is the only situation where a gap closer would be really needed. But giving tanks weapon throw already helps this somewhat.

But with that said, a gap closer would be really make the class more fun. So I hope they do it.

If they do, I hope wars get a charge or leap. Holm gang just doesn't work that well.

The range is too short, takes too long to pull people in, and sometimes the enemy is bound away from the wars reach.

I wish they would scrap pull abilities if they can't make it work properly.

As for homogenization of classes, I think that argument has no merit. All healers have heals, but the different way in which the different classes heals work and how they mesh with the classes overall kit provides for diversity.

The same can be done to accommodate a gap closer for each tank.

I hope they make it happen.

[zuzu-bq]

DRK have the "monopoly" over Tanks' Gap Closers because unlike PLD and WAR they don't have any Knockback-preventing ability so in the end it gets compensated. So are you also saying DRKs should get that? That would homogenize the jobs and the game even more unless you make each gap closer very unique somehow like P4X0R10N said. Many of the players that understand about game design will disagree with both of these options. Of course there are pros and cons about adding these kind of utilities for all of them. But in the end it will be what Devs and Designers think its best for the game and not only for one or other job.

About DRK's "flash". Yes you can compare Unleash with Flash because both are mana based cost for area enmity but their uses differ a bit because of their effects and also what can be added together from each of the two tanks' ability kit. And DRKs can blind with DA Dark Passenger for both Dungeon and PvP purposes.
Also...

All healers have some kind of native shield skill

Diurnal Astrologian's only shielding skill is cros-class Stoneskin.

All healers have a cleanse
All healers have an AoE cure

Yeah so it becomes possible to play dungeons with any of them somehow since you can only have one per Light Party duty. This is like stating "every DPS has an AoE damage skill".

All melee DPS have at least 2 stuns

Ninjas have one in exchange for the utility of being able to chose between Silence of Stun for Jugulate. Tank stuns last longer and if they hold their Stun cd for something you need stunned it becomes a lower party dps loss than if a DPS does it.

[Kages]

As for homogenization of classes, I think that argument has no merit. All healers have heals, but the different way in which the different classes heals work and how they mesh with the classes overall kit provides for diversity.

The argument that all healers got heals, so all tanks need a gap-closer has no merit as well.
First of all healers being able to heal is, well... the essence of their job? So ofc all healers get some form of healing, which isn't what I tried to imply with "homogenization".
Tanks are able to tank because of skills with increased enmity generation and skills with some form of defensive increase. So all of them get those skills, which btw. has nothing to do with gap-closers. Gap-closers being a part of the core-abilities of tanks is debatable (at least in this game).
As a matter of fact there are a lot of classes with mobility-skills (just look at NIN's Shukuchi, DRG's Jumps etc.).
Problem is that none of these skills is really needed or used as gap-closers. I understand that people like the idea of WAR e.g. throwing a harpoon, but tbh it would just be another gap-closer/movement-skill, which is essentially useless (or to be more specific, isn't used as such) and is basically a glorified oGCD-damage skill.
SE needs to first make any form of movement skill more viable in 4.0 (as most of them aren't even used to e.g. escape situations/AoE's or other forms of smart movement) and second implement mechanics, that actually make use of the movement/gap-closing abilities.

Just out of honest curiosity: Do people really just want another glorified skill used for DPS, so things generally stay the same in 4.0? Or wouldn't people actually prefer new skills that are actually used in new ways and useful?

I think pvp is the only situation where a gap closer would be really needed. But giving tanks weapon throw already helps this somewhat.

In general DRK isn't top notch (or anywhere near it) in PvP, while having Plunge as a gap-closer. From a balancing-perspective (in PvP) it would be unbalanced to grant PLD/WAR a gap-closer, as they are fine most of the time in PvP. (Just my humble opinion though)

[SyzzleSpark]

PLD: "LOL You're just a clone of me..."
WAR: "LOL You're poorly designed..."
DRK: "ya ok whatev"

*2 raid tiers later*

*knockknock*

PLD/WAR: "Um that Plunge thing... can we have it? We're sorry we made fun of you and said you were just Plunging to look cool, we get it now."
DRK: "Yeah sure, could I have-"
PLD/WAR: "HOMOGENIZATION OMG OMG OMG"

But seriously, if you give PLD and WAR gap-closers, they now have 2 anti-knockbacks where DRK has 1. I think asking for a magical version of cover or a slashing debuff/oGCD stances or some such isn't an unfair trade.

That said, I don't want any of it. PLD and WAR have things that make them unique and valuable as does DRK, and tools that achieve the same purpose in different ways. I see no reason to wreck that by playing the gimme-what-other-jobs-have-because-I-WANT-IT game. If you don't like Tempered Will/Holmgang, that's a problem with those skills and NOT an entitlement to get Plunge-clones in addition to those skills.

It'd be like a DRK main saying "I don't like Reprisal, so give me Storm's Path AND Reprisal."

[Lisotte]

Do we even know if we're getting more levels next expansion? If anything we know we're getting jobs streamlined, fewer skills and not more.

[Kages]

Do we even know if we're getting more levels next expansion?

If we wouldn't get a higher level-cap people would probably riot. Being able to further level all of your classes is a pretty hefty time sink (more time invested into the game equals more money spent for subscription by the customer) and some people actually enjoy it. So it would be wise to increase the level cap.
I agree with "fewer skill", but I would rather call it "no new hotkeys to use". While new skills that need new hotkeys wouldn't be a good idea, there are options to implement and expand the current skill system without further bloating our hotkey-bar.
The easiest way would be to implement traits only as you level up to whatever the new level-cap is. But... as most people would like new flashy skill animations, this is probably unlikely.
Another way to expand the system would be to to swap existing skillslots when certain criteria are met.
Like Skill 3 of your Skill1->Skill2->Skill3 basic combo becoming a different Skill4 when specific conditions are met (like skill2 critting etc.).
There are actually a lot of possible ideas, that could work with conditional swaps. To further expand on my "better/more useful movement-skills"-idea a few examples I can think of right now:
- MNK's Shoulder Tackle could become an instant forward dash if no target is selected, while retaining its original properties when a target is selected. MNK's skills could change depending on the stance used.
- NIN's Shukuchi and DRG's Elusive Jump getting a new effect when a target is selected during execution (e.g. damage, CC, buff etc.). NIN's skills could change depending on the poison used (a concept already used for Jugulate). [BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD no 4th mudra pls...]
- DRK's Plunge getting a new effect when no target is selected, PLD's Tempered Will or Awareness getting new effects when certain conditions are met or depending on the stance used [which SE could also use to fix the discrepancies of PLD during Sword Oath compared to lets say WAR).
I'm not to sure about which skill of WAR and which skills of other classes could change through which condition, but as I demonstrated (hopefully), it's pretty much possible to expand the skill-system without bloating our hotbar any further, as there is a plethora of conditions one may think of (3rd repitition of skill x changes it, crit of skill y changes skill x, skill x changes to skill z while under buff a, Skill x changes during a specific stance and the list goes on).
edit:
Personal Opinion following: In my opinion FFXIV is lacking options. As an oldschool Ragnarok Online player I would really like to see one class play differently depending on preferences. The current system only offers the illusion of choices (e.g. through status points spread), but in reality all points will always be spent on the main stat. One playstyle would probably still be best for raids (as people will always min/max), but that's a point SE needs to adress through balancing.