As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[Dogempire]

During ARR yes it was true
At HW it's less true

The upgrade of the healing toolkit and power only require 10% (20% on squishy tank) of your capabilities to keep a group alive
Savage content will require more attention due to high damage and short healing window

Otherwise i don't see why a heal should not try a bit to dps
I don't require a dps level of damage
Just a bit

Because of 2 rules :
ABC - Always be casting
Keep the overheal to the minimum

I'm not really talking about savage, it's kind of a given that people should be playing at 100% on savage and ex content and that not dpsing isn't playing at 100% for healers.

[Lambdafish]

I'm not really talking about savage, it's kind of a given that people should be playing at 100% on savage and ex content and that not dpsing isn't playing at 100% for healers.

if you are talking about dungeons then only healing involves 90% idling/overhealing anyway because the barrier to entry is so low. I honestly don't care about this subject, because I don't care what other party members are doing unless they are getting me killed (and even then, that somehow makes it more fun). The point is though, you SHOULD be DPSing while healing if the content permits it, as I said before: a healers job is to do whatever is most relevant at the time, that means that you plan your next GCD around your party's health, and if they don't need a heal, throw out a DPS spell (doesn't even need to be in cleric stance if you struggle with stance dancing). I feel like the gap of expectation is whether cleric stance should be used rather than if DPS spells should be used, because DPSing as a healer should be normal, just as using non tanking combos should be normal for a tank if they have a good amount of aggro.

A raid healer will most of the time make dps sweat because of numbers and tank tighten their pant with life drop to the extreme XD

A raid healer is a whole different subject that isn't even considered when making this argument. When raiding, you typically have a main healer and off-healer. The main healer will maintain heals 100% of the time and will never ever DPS unless there is a phase which allows for it (no damage going out, DPS check push), an off healer gauges through practice when and when not they are able to DPS and on less intensive/overgeared fights, they may find that they are in cleric stance for over 50% of the fight. This DPS output is worked out through strategy and group practice, whereas dungeons and trials work as outlined above, where the partys health dictates what skills you use at any given time (a fact not relegated to pro-healers, but also should apply to standard healers as well)

[Nekotee]

The line about savage was here to state that savage require an other mindset with higher optimisation

Like lambda said
In donjon content most of the time you can dps because combat are not intense and mecanic are almost inexistant

And as said even without cleric you can dps
A lazy healer will have 0 dps (maybe more if whm with non miss assize)
An unsure healer should have more or less 250+ dps because he doesn't use cleric
A classic healer will have 800+ with a balanced gameplay

A raid healer will most of the time make dps sweat because of numbers and tank tighten their pant with life drop to the extrême XD
(Yolodiction at the last second while in cleric yay !)

[Dogempire]

Snippity snap.

I agree with you there, I personally almost always dpsed while healing because I get bored standing around and doing nothing, and you should DPS instead of standing around

Still, I'm against forcing people to play a certain way on dungeon content, some people are uncomfortable with dpsing using cleric and you shouldn't force people to do so

However, I do like dungeons like the vault that force bad players to evolve. I was alright at healing but I wasn't using all my skills at the time, and that had to change during the dungeon.

Well that and I had a crappy computer that would lagg during Sir Cherry Burp's aoes to the point I die, so I couldn't finish the dungeon as a healer. It's amazing how much harder a bad computer makes the game.

[FunkyBunch]

Still, I'm against forcing people to play a certain way on dungeon content, some people are uncomfortable with dpsing using cleric and you shouldn't force people to do so

I think your are equating something no one here is saying. We're not saying Healers should always DPS and maximize their rotations in dungeon content.
We're saying PLEASE DPS A LITTLE BIT.
A Healer DPSing makes the difference between a wipe or running out of TP on large pulls.

EG:
My friend and I were running Neverreap/Fractal for the TTCs yesterday.
As a NIN, I would run out of TP before the second full pull died if the Healer was standing around with his thumb up his butt. It adds about 2-3 minutes to that stupid pull having to single target 5 mobs 0TP. Multiply that by 6 pulls and it makes the dungeon take 50% longer.
And I would have around 300-400 TP left if he was in Cleric Stance.

On Fractal, the pull from the first boss to as far as you can go is literally a WIPE if the Healer doesn't DPS. When it shouldn't be.

Healers who ONLY heal are literally a problem. They can, and DO cause WIPES. If ANY other class caused a wipe it would be unacceptable, I don't understand the "it's ok cuz healers."
If you can't Heal and DPS, either learn, or don't bother to play the class. Learn a class you can do.

[Lambdafish]

Still, I'm against forcing people to play a certain way on dungeon content, some people are uncomfortable with dpsing using cleric and you shouldn't force people to do so

While I appreciate you agreeing, I still feel like you are missing my point, as FunkyBunch pointed out. To quote myself, I mentioned specifically separating the arguement away from the need for cleric stance:

a healers job is to do whatever is most relevant at the time, that means that you plan your next GCD around your party's health, and if they don't need a heal, throw out a DPS spell (doesn't even need to be in cleric stance if you struggle with stance dancing)...

...I feel like the gap of expectation is whether cleric stance should be used rather than if DPS spells should be used, because DPSing as a healer should be normal, just as using non tanking combos should be normal for a tank if they have a good amount of aggro.

What I mean here is that the expectation to throw out a few DPS spells during downtime is valid, and not doing so makes you a bad healer and in extreme examples causes problems for the party. This is no different to a BLM casting only blizzard, or me only doing a 1, 2, 3 combo on WAR (missing maim and storms eye entirely), it is bad practice and slows runs down drastically, not because of skill, but because of laziness (generalizing slightly, but it does not take skill to use a stone spell when the tank is at full health, especially if the tank knows what they are doing).

Nobody is asking dungeon healers to stance dance, as much as we shouldn't expect dungeon tanks to stance dance (especially PLD), but we should expect players to use their full standard rotations and for healers to use the DPS skills that they have (at least in some capacity if they are unsure) even at a casual endgame level.

Example: for SCH you can adlo the tank, put up 3 dots, shadowflare, and broil forever in a dungeon, your fairy will do most of the work, and aetherflow and occasional adlos will do the rest (I suck at healing and still manage to do this easily, an even better healer would stance dance while doing this). WHM and AST have regen spells that achieve a similar scenario

[bardaboo]

Saying it's a healers only job to keep everyone alive is like saying it's the tanks job to tank only the mobs that will kill a dps. Or a dps only really has to try if there's a dps check, no dps check? "Well, he is doing some dps" "but he's only using venomous bite" "it's something, who are you to judge".

[KokonoeAiyoko]

Yoshi-P commented on this a bit.

For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

So according to Yoshi-P, all of the game is designed to be beaten without a Healer having to DPS, but the option is there for people that do want to utilize it. If you're queueing for Duty Finder and your Healer is keeping everyone alive, that should be equal to a Tank consistently keeping enmity the entire run, or a DPS doing consistent damage throughout the run.

[Dogempire]

Saying it's a healers only job to keep everyone alive is like saying it's the tanks job to tank only the mobs that will kill a dps. Or a dps only really has to try if there's a dps check, no dps check? "Well, he is doing some dps" "but he's only using venomous bite" "it's something, who are you to judge".

No, it's the tank's job to keep emnity on all mobs, your example is bad. Besides, if you have a problem with someone else's play style and it's not causing anyone to wipe then YOU can leave and eat the 30 minute penalty.

Besides, I'm not even concerned about the issue anymore, I'm worried about the lack of compassion to other players since all people seem to care about is "BUT MAH DEE PEE ES." It's just a game, a 30 minute run vs a 20 minute run won't kill you.

Also refer to this thread if you think all healers should DPS and heal:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...xpert-Roulette

[KokonoeAiyoko]

I'm worried about the lack of compassion to other players since all people seem to care about is "BUT MAH DEE PEE ES." It's just a game, a 30 minute run vs a 20 minute run won't kill you.

I agree about the lack of compassion bit.

Like, the current pressure put on Healers who aren't DPSing to DPS and not accepting no for answer is honestly quite selfish. I don't mind someone asking, but to have this mandatory expectation of someone outside of runs you create via Party Finder, or your Raid group, or Savage content to DPS as Healer to merely make a run 5 minutes faster when that person does not want to should not be happening, especially when the game is designed for you be able to complete without it.

I've seen a piece of logic thrown around a bit on the internet about Healer DPS that I have a problem with as well. "But you CAN do it, therefore if you do not do it, you are a bad Healer. You should be doing everything in your ability as a team member, and if you do not, you are not good."

A bit of it is true, it doesn't hurt to sometimes go out of your way, but as a option when the situation presents itself, but let's apply that same mandatory optionless logic to DPS.

"If you're a MNK and are not using Blood Bath to heal yourself, you're a bad MNK."
"If you're a DRG and are not using Foresight when taking physical damage of any kind, including physical AoEs, you're a bad DRG."
"If you're a BLM and are not using Eye for an Eye on the Tank, you're a bad BLM."
"If you're a NIN and are not using Keen Flurry, you're a bad NIN."
"If you're a BRD and are not using Second Wind, you're a bad BRD."

That is why this line of thinking doesn't work. Regardless of how potent Healer DPS is, it would be a double standard to expect this and not expect all of the things I mentioned because you can do them when the opportunity presents itself.