How would you change Nocturnal AST to be competitive against SCH?

[Valknut]

Snip

I'm talking about 99% of content, I'm a level 60 CNJ, SCH an AST. I'm starting to think its like you don't heal at all. Joining a group as a WHM with another WHM is painful, being delusional about going into N.AST stance when paired with a WHM/D.AST is worse. Being SCH and joining a group with any other healer is Meh, one of you is gonna heal, one of you is gonna DPS. Hell a good amount of the time your both gonna DPS and the fairy's will handle the rest.

If all your talking about is pushing content, Savage I'm gonna assume. In a progressive raid group no one in the game cares about that. Serious no one does. Soon as your in a group with the intention of doing whatever you can do, your preference in job is no longer a priority. The big problem is when you join (come 3.4) the current EX primal fights/24man raid have no SCH/WAR and your group is collectively thinking " Were gimped now cause we don't have a SCH/WAR, our 2nd healer or 2nd tank is 100% making this harder by playing what they want/have to play"

[Jonnycbad]

WHM can heal and dps too, it's called Divine Seal+Regen+Medica II+Asylum, then switch to Cleric's and even then you can benediction.

[Kabzy]

-Snip-

To be quite honest, I don't even understand your point now. Are you saying that you don't care about Savage and you're talking about all the other (99% supposedly) content in the game? If so, you're being irrelevant yet again. There is no content outside of savage that cannot be done with any healer pairing, even double WHM.

People complained about AST being underpowered very early on release, and yet the devs said that they won't touch the job until they have seen savage stats and received feedback. It's literally the only content that actually decides whether a job requires buffs or nerfs. So there may be 99% of other content for you to be getting on with, but end game raiding and the meta is what decides job balance. And in end game raiding, there are roles, and certain jobs will fit those roles.

My point from the beginning (actually related to this thread) was that AST is the issue with the healer imbalance currently, not SCH. This goes back to the roles thing, in the 3.x meta healer DPS is a huge factor in raiding, and so one job has to do it. SCH happens to have the tools to do it the best, and AST could have matched this if they had a more powerful buffing toolkit that was not reliant on RNG. Because of the direction they have taken this job, obviously people will choose the better job for the off healer role and so SCH has a guaranteed slot in teams. I'm not saying this is right, but at the same time I also don't think AST should be given every tool in the game to mimic both healers. It will make it unfair on the fourth job, which should be competitive with SCH, and will create even more balancing issues.

And yes, roles are a thing. You simply cannot take dual SCH into a progression raid team, and they definitely are the worst main healers when compared to the other two jobs. You're either overestimating the job or you literally have not seen or done any end game content.

[Valknut]

Ex roulette, Midas, Primals , 24 mans are end game content. Party make up still matters in them, no you don't have to optimise to clear, but I have yet to meet someone in this game who likes a slow party. Why does SCH have trouble main healing, I have never had an issue, nor do I see how WHM or AST does it better. Give me some reasons why AST and WHM main heal better. Cause I don't see any at all.

Ermagerd they have Cure II and insta cast heals. So? Alternate Aldo and Psychic and your tank will be safer then WHM/AST can possibly make them. We have Regen, we have group heals, we have the best shields, We have the best DPS, We have the most utility, and the strongest debuff. Why isnt a SCH keeping shields on the tank 24/7 and a WHM not just popping out of Cleric for Aoe heals? Cause mana, Cause fairy, cause SCH has way to much going for it.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/p1hkz...pe=damage-done

^ SCH main healing with a WHM " Off healing "

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bo...spec=WhiteMage

Whm DPS on faust stats

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bo...l&spec=Scholar

SCH DPS on Faust stats

Whm should be the off healer by what all the data says, they can do the best burst AOE healing and have benediction for emergency's. But once again, SCH is just to god damn good at whatever they do why not just have the better DPS'er heal?

[Rawrz]

Ex roulette, Midas, Primals , 24 mans are end game content. Party make up still matters in them, no you don't have to optimise to clear, but I have yet to meet someone in this game who likes a slow party. Why does SCH have trouble main healing, I have never had an issue, nor do I see how WHM or AST does it better. Give me some reasons why AST and WHM main heal better. Cause I don't see any at all.

Ermagerd they have Cure II and insta cast heals. So? Alternate Aldo and Psychic and your tank will be safer then WHM/AST can possibly make them. We have Regen, we have group heals, we have the best shields, We have the best DPS, We have the most utility, and the strongest debuff. Why isnt a SCH keeping shields on the tank 24/7 and a WHM not just popping out of Cleric for Aoe heals? Cause mana, Cause fairy, cause SCH has way to much going for it.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/p1hkz...pe=damage-done

^ SCH main healing with a WHM " Off healing "

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bo...spec=WhiteMage

Whm DPS on faust stats

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bo...l&spec=Scholar

SCH DPS on Faust stats

Whm should be the off healer by what all the data says, they can do the best burst AOE healing and have benediction for emergency's. But once again, SCH is just to god damn good at whatever they do why not just have the better DPS'er heal?

Every SCH knows that a WHM can all out, out dps them, ESPECIALLY in burst content, such as Faust. But... Lol look at these fights. They are almost completely one sided. One of the top WHM contributed 20 hps? Ok that's practical. If you notice, the other other healer gets to contribute significantly more when the off healer is the SCH. It's not about who does the most damage, it's who can perform the role with the most gains.

WHM is the best damage dealer. It is the best healer, it just can't contribute to healing as fluidly as SCH and their ogcds/ fairy micromanagement, while performing the DPS aspect. The core of SCH dps is also mp subsidized as they are DoTs.

[Kabzy]

Just to add to what Rawrz said, it's well known that SCH has the lowest DPS out of the three, it's just that they have the best sustained. And choosing fights that we are completely overgeared for does not validate any of the points you were making. Faust is literally a training dummy, and it's from a1s, we're on a8s right now and our gear is much, much better now.

Heck even a5s I could solo heal easily as a SCH and let my AST DPS, but my whole point was about progression raiding. No one cares about stats from irrelevant content. The irrelevance seems to be a major theme here with you.

[Valknut]

Nonsense.

AST has the lowest DPS, that is well known by everyone who heals... People don't 100% of the time use SCH for progression raids, a lot of fights having WHM/AST is better. But hey if you think they only look at the highest end raid for balance issues, why did we see N.AST buffs in 3.3? No one was playing N.AST so how do you buff something with 0 numbers?

Some serious elitest stuff right here, only A8S matter everything else doesn't mean anything. So what like 300/500/300 NA/JP/EU people are deciding the outcome of all class balance by what they play? I some how don't believe that at all.

[Rawrz]

I think the changes to nocturnal were caused by the incessant (but warranted) forum posts over it's issues in combination with the fact that because no one was clearing savage ("relevant end game") they saw that maybe it could use some love. As long as they didn't buff shared diurnal skills too far, the class would stay in balance, since diurnal is ASTs true stance, as a very effecient main healer. They gave players what they wanted, again.

I hope in 3.4 we get another a7s. (Except screw getting balls, god damn possessed marbles from hell.) That's where you learn to appreciate your shields and regens and everything you have that prevents death. The mechanic to soft enrage your healers is just wonderful. Its like the raid and yourself dps and do mechanics and you have your own mechanic. No deaths allowed or you will beyond cripple yourself. Death begets death via damage up stacks and weakness. It's a pretty amazing fight and made me better in allot of aspects (Shield bombing, more serious use of Eos; solid gains for sacred soil. )

Just some thoughts. Also AST does have decent DPS. The damage obtained from a spread balance is their DPS along with a DoT kit that is as powerful as an SCHs with a larger filler spell. They lack energy drain, which might let an SCH pull ahead, but a prepped balance goes pretty far.

[Kabzy]

AST has the lowest DPS, that is well known by everyone who heals...

SE have confirmed that SCH has the lowest DPS of the three as their dummies in 'Stone, Sky, Sea' will always have the lowest HP requirements. So you can call my posts nonsensical if it makes you feel better, but once again you are making up your own facts, which are completely wrong.

And don't insult by saying 'everyone who heals', there are some healers here who actually know what they're talking about.

Some serious elitest stuff right here, only A8S matter everything else doesn't mean anything. So what like 300/500/300 NA/JP/EU people are deciding the outcome of all class balance by what they play? I some how don't believe that at all.

It's not elitism. People who partake in end game content will generally explore the full toolkits of their job and optimise their roles. It's only from high level play that you can determine a jobs true potential, and hence the devs wanted savage feedback before they made any changes. You can choose not to believe it, or you could just do some searching and find the exact post from the dev when they were talking about AST early on in Gordias.

[Rennies]

Why does Scholar's SSS have the lowest requirements when Scholar can get 450 potency with oGCDs and Ast has nothing consistent to match it? I haven't tried SSS so I'm not aware of how it works, but Scholar having the lowest requirements of all three healers sounds silly.