Difficulty format for Normal and Savage will remain in 4.0

[Nalien]

Wouldn't, then, the best way to facilitate that be to separate the two entirely and make gear that can only be used in either content, casual or hardcore? From what I read in the last 2 pages, you are not actually suggesting to separate the two or make them independent, but rather to just plainly put the latter more ahead of the prior, which doesn't solve the issue you point out, as it's still just one progression path - it just stops earlier for casuals.

Well, I've not elaborated on it in this thread I think, at least not today (definitely touched on this some time this week though), but I'd quite like more Relic style progression... For both weapons and gear, that allows for a fairly solid split between casual and hardcore though... Yes they'd share the same progression system (item level), and yes the hardcore option would be stronger, but I see no issues with that (again, as someone who doesn't raid). It requires a wider variety of content, harder content, so it makes sense for it to be stronger... I'd have loved A Relic Reborn to have given me Omnilex, and subsequent "casual" quests upgrading it, while Primal Focus gave me Cognitome, with "hardcore" quests upgrading it, perhaps even tying them together at the end for a true "ultimate" weapon.

I think a system like that works for a number of reasons... Firstly, since it's for weapons and gear, you can arguably "lessen" the grind. Overall the grind can be of the same level, or even longer, but since you're doing it for multiple pieces of gear, you can get rewarded more frequently. Instead of, for example, upgrading your Anima Weapon and being finished after around 80 Umbrite, you could require around 90 instead, but after 15 you've upgraded one piece of gear. I also think Relic style grinds work better for maintaining purpose in events, although that's not quite true for the Anima questline, given it's a directionless mess IMO. Still, if you need to do Coil to upgrade a Cognitome, then Coil has a solid purpose beyond farming glamours... It would also technically give us three progression paths, you can do the casual Relic grind or you can do the hardcore one, or you can not bother with such stupid grind... You can just do content for the gear that drops there...

Lets say 4.0 starts us out at endgame with i300. Casual content can get us up to i310. Hardcore content can get us up to i320. People do that content, then the Relic quests come along. The casual quests get you to i320, while the hardcore gets you to i330. I think this would work somewhat better simply because it doesn't quite invalidate content in the same way we currently see... Right now, people did Midas to get i240, the catch up patch came along and everyone could get there fairly easily through pretty casual content... Next patch comes along, your Midas gear is thrown to the wayside and we repeat the cycle. Throw in Relic style progression, and everyone is getting the same item level through a fairly casual Relic grind while you're going a step further with your own hardcore Relic grind... Getting the raid content down and mastering it gets a new reward in the form of that Relic gear, that's a much better reason to farm it, IMO... Whats more, that gear sticks with you... While the Midas gear gets thrown in the same bin as the Gordias gear, you hold onto Relic gear to upgrade it later... There's a sense of progression there that regular gear just lacks, patches like 3.4 come along and just reset everything...

I guess my real issue is with catch-up patches though... As someone not raiding, I want there to always be a set of gear which is stronger than what I have, something to look up to and maybe think about aiming for... That keeps me invested in the game... Catch-up patches though, they just put me at the current peak... There is nothing new to lust over, I'm just being handed the current best item level... If I have the best item level, I want to have earned it by beating the game, but all catch-up patches do is go "Don't bother with Midas!"... I've not beaten the game to get i240, I haven't touched Midas, or Nidhogg, or Sephirot, or Thordan... Christ, I've barely even touched dungeons to get this far, for some reason I've gotten this far into i240 off PvP... My Guillotine of the Tyrant is mostly built off earning my Lone Wolf gear last season... My investment in PvE content is laughable, yet here I am progressing up the item levels anyway...

Perhaps that's the point... Perhaps the idea is that we pick what we enjoy and get rewarded with that, rather than having to do X to get Y... That makes for a pretty shallow MMO IMO, and I'm not sure XIV does anything amazingly well enough to justify that... I'm still playing because this game is better than the sum of its parts... If the idea is that I pick one or two things I enjoy... I'll pick games that do those things better and likely don't have subscription fees...

[Velhart]

I wonder how many things would be solved were the item levels removed from the game.

None and would create more problems with how the game is structured.

snip

Sorry, but people who put less effort in the harder content of the game are not entitled to the same gear as those who put the effort to complete hard content like raids.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In all fairness to the raid gear structure. While not perfect by any means, it is still the most powerful and upgrade items for tomestone are locked behind raiding till the odd numbered patch comes out. It is a weird thing to balance ilvl gear since we get things like crafted gear per even patch now. You have to make the crafted gear worthwhile at release or people will not want it. It is mostly raiders who buy the sets. Most people get Alex(story mode) gear.

It is weirdly balanced right now. Best thing to do is offer feedback and hope it is incorporated into 4.0.

[Zojha]

It requires a wider variety of content, harder content, so it makes sense for it to be stronger...

I generally disagree with that premise because the point of difficulty IMO is not to justify bigger rewards, but rather to keep people of different talents and engagement levels entertained, no more no less. And in single-player games, that is deemed perfectly acceptable and common practice since ages - it's just MMOs in which people think harder difficulties should naturally come with bigger rewards and I think the sole reason for that is the ability to flaunt.

Similarly, power/iLvL IMO is not a reward, but a means to an end - and we're sorely lacking in ends in the casual department. It "could" serve to adjust the raid difficulty naturally, so that a geared "casual" would be able to pug and beat the raid as he would now beat normal mode, but the mechanic heavy raid design doesn't support this, plus the power gained from items doesn't make enough of a difference until several patches (or expansions) later. There's no casual content that requires you to be geared either - all content that requires good gear also requires coordination beyond pugs. It's pretty much gearing up for gearing up sake and that _is_ an issue, because as you say, there are no real goals.

That aside, the way you outline the suggestion doesn't really draw a clear line, even if the quests were mutually exclusive, because progressing along the hardcore path automatically progresses along the casual one, as the progression metric (iLvL) is identical and the usage isn't mutually exclusive. It just progresses further. As such, it also doesn't help with your goal issue, it just cuts off your progression earlier until you switch to hardcore.

I agree, though, that extending the relic system to more gear and thus opening up another gearing method as such might be beneficial. Gearing as is isn't very diverse, both in acquisition (though tomes have innate content diversity) and the gear itself: I think there's not a single vit/crit/det choker for tanks over i190. I would expect at least every stat combination to be represented for every slot on each iLvL plateau >_>

[Velhart]

I generally disagree with that premise because the point of difficulty IMO is not to justify bigger rewards, but rather to keep people of different talents and engagement levels entertained, no more no less. And in single-player games, that is deemed perfectly acceptable and common practice since ages - it's just MMOs in which people think harder difficulties should naturally come with bigger rewards and I think the sole reason for that is the ability to flaunt.

Problem is, you kill motivation to take on harder content. Developers should focus on motivating people to do all their content, those who are and who are not interested in raiding. It really is wasted content if you are not trying to get people in. The rewards have to match the effort put into them or it becomes one of the factors that kill motivation. You can't compare a single player experience with a MMO. It is a domain you have to share with others.

[Zojha]

Problem is, you kill motivation to take on harder content.

I don't see that as a problem, because as I said, to me, difficulty serves no purpose other than to engage people of different levels of skill/talent. The increased engagement as such is the motivation to take it on, because a lower level would just bore you but that level doesn't. Thus, different difficulties provide value - people who would be bored otherwise are being entertained by the game. What destroys value is trying to get people to play on a level they do not find "right" for them, be it too high or too low. And the issue here is probably more that people who prefer a higher difficulty level have to do too much content on a lower difficulty level than they'd prefer.

That aside: I do think the single-player comparison is perfectly valid in that regard. A person who plays Divinity Original Sin on Tactician Mode likely doesn't give a rats ass if someone out there is playing it on Explorer, because the experience of the other doesn't impact their own. In an MMO, the same applies - if one group does a boss on hard mode and another on easy mode, the experience of one group does not impact the experience of the other.
And yes, you share the same domain - both of those groups will end up idling in Idyllshire. And that is the point where people want difficulty to come with higher rewards, out of the desire to flaunt their tokens of esteem when the two groups meet in order to elevate their own ego. Their experience is completely independent, but this social aspect is why "effort must meet reward" and I don't think it's a positive one that deserves to be supported. Effort is the wrong word by the way, because everyone has different capabilities and it will take some people far more effort than others to achieve the same result as others - a colorblind person will have far more trouble dodging some colored circles than people with normal sight. "Performance" is what you mean.

[Archaell]

...

The harder content is mostly about the bragging rights - the players want to prove that they are better than plebs and flex their awesome gear in front of the scrubs. That's the main motivation behind the HC raiding even if few people do it for other reasons.

The less bragging there is the less people are going to bother with the stupid instant wipe mechanics. Simple as that.

Most players would not bother with Savage if the Normal gave the same rewards. Just a simple thing as giving players stronger unique looking gear would motivate a lot of people otherwise not interested to do the savage.

For the casual content and extremes it's quite easy to survive the whole raiding season in the crafted gear + relic, maybe even without it coz we finally get crafted weapons! So idk why should it bother causals so much that the welfare gear has slightly less item levels when these are not needed for nothing else than savage itself.

[Vantol]

A person who plays Divinity Original Sin on Tactician Mode likely doesn't give a rats ass if someone out there is playing it on Explorer, because the experience of the other doesn't impact their own. In an MMO, the same applies

No, it does not. Because you play single-player games and MMO for completly different reasons. You play single games for story/graphics and stuff,- whatever brings you "fun", and MMO only for social dominance, here "fun" is irrelevant. MMO that fails to bring means for person A to be better than person B is trash.

[SinisterJointss]

Honestly, with the current status of content there is no need for raiders to have gear that is 10 ilvl's higher. I'm not saying that raiding shouldn't yield rewards that are meaningful or a bit higher in terms of strength of the gear. I'm just being honest in saying that with current difficulty there really is no need. (even with raiding) And the same can be said for non raiders. The reason for gear that is that high is because of player skill level, people just suck at mechanics in this game and others are too impatient to teach.

The PF is plagued with impatient people when it comes to new people learning the content.

RF is currently useless, I could sit in que all day and never get into a raid. These are things that need improving IMO

Coming from someone who has been a hardcore raider in every MMO i've played (except this one due to work/kids/time constraints). It is desire that is prompting these outrages, not need. I think the savage content gear should be better than normal, and currently it is. However, due to how gear architecture is in this game it hardly matters.

IMO I wish we had some more meaningful raids

Let's face it though, MMO's arent what they used to be. From A-Z MMO's have changed (for the worse imo) Stuff is easier, less work involved etc.

Relics for example are nothing but grinds... that is it. Grind this so you can get that, grind tomes so you can buy this. It's meaningless and it's why I dont even bother with them.

I remember doing Epic weapons in EQ and they required all sorts of content to complete from solo > group > raid. It felt great once you completed them, had a sense of accomplishment.


There are quite a few good suggestions in this thread already. Some I even suggested long long ago but devs will be devs. We all have our own vision on how we would like this game to be in regards to content, and gear and sometimes its best to take a back seat and just offer suggestions. If/when you decide the game isnt for you, then you already know what to do.

[Nalien]

The problem is that item level is how we progress out characters... For that to function properly, you should have to put some effort into progressing, yet I wouldn't really say you need to here... They've actively undermined character progression with their difficulty curve, or lack of... All you need to do for i240, the current cap, is do dungeons which are tuned such that a moron could clear them, and participate in Hunts, which are a complete zergfest... That's it, you might have to wait a while, but ultimately that is all you need to do to take your character to the peak...

When players any step above that skill level (and I'd hope that's all players, but I've seen the Duty Finder...) become aware of that, it starts to devalue content... What is the point in doing Midas? Certainly not character progression, character progression is practically automatic in this game given enough time... Yes it's an inherently egotistical exercise to do Midas to laud your riches over others, but who cares? Is the current generation of casual gamer so thin skinned that they see a prick doing such and actually feel bad about it? I mean, I feel bad whenever I've seen people doing that, but only because I felt sorry for the poor sod who feels the need to show off like that... In my day, we had hardcore gamers who were OK people, and I looked up to them and wanted to get the same rewards, that motivated me to keep playing. Then we had ass-holes with the same gear who acted like Gods gift to humanity because of it, and we laughed at them and correctly asserted that they have no life... And that also motivated me to keep playing, so I could knock them down a peg... I see no problem with this... XIV is just a shallower game for its attempts to normalize everyone... They've destroyed my sense of progression by just resetting us all on a bi-patchly basis, I've not made my character stronger, they've just released and handed me a new item level. I've not gotten better at the game, there is nothing to get better at... Every dungeon is the same as the last and raids difficulty curves are all over the place... The only place none of this is true, oddly enough, is PvP... There are people who are better than me at PvP, and I kinda look up to them. There are people who are better than me at PvP, and complete jerks, and that's fine too... The Leaderboard and Wolf Coat work as a better form of progression that item levels as well... It's really kind of scary that, of all the aspects in this game, I'd probably praise PvP the most because of this... PvP isn't even that good in XIV... Final Fantasy, a notoriously PvE franchise, and... Just... What happened? Did I enter the Twilight Zone again...

Seriously, what is actually wrong with casuals getting a lower item level? If casuals have no progression, I see a problem with that, but that's not what I think anyone is suggesting... Everyone should be able to experience character progressions, but I really don't see the problem with someone who puts more effort into the game reaching a higher level... That should be a good thing, that's how you motivate people to get better at the game, to invest in it and keep playing... Why would I invest in a game I barely need to play in order to progress to the top? I built my Relic off PvP, I hardly touched PvE for it... When we get to 3.55, and I've got my Anima to i275 or whatever, I'll effectively have gotten to the peak of Everest, but I sure as hell didn't climb here... Am I supposed to feel accomplished in that fact?

[zosia]

Wouldn't, then, the best way to facilitate that be to separate the two entirely and make gear that can only be used in either content, casual or hardcore? From what I read in the last 2 pages, you are not actually suggesting to separate the two or make them independent, but rather to just plainly put the latter more ahead of the prior, which doesn't solve the issue you point out, as it's still just one progression path - it just stops earlier for casuals.

The part you don't seem to understand is that the two progression paths would be available to anyone and everyone, the only person stopping you from the raid progression path is yourself. Yoshida has already spelled out that we are going back to FCoB difficulty for raids, arguably the easiest raid tier this game has ever had. If the easiest raid difficulty is too hard for you to pug, then maybe you should not have max ilvl gear?

Again, as I asked somewhere else, why does raid gear being 10 ilvls higher than upgraded tome gear bother you so much? Why not let raiders just have it? I really don't get why it bothers you guys so much. I feel entitled to that 10 ilvl boost because of the effort required in spending millions of gil, countless hours of prog, and endless headache of scheduling. That extra effort should give me a bit of advantage over a player who plays 30 mins a day for their expert. I don't see where your entitlement comes from. I don't understand why you think that millions of gil, countless hours of prog, and endless headaches of scheduling should be rewarded in the same manner that running a daily expert and a weekly 24 man is. In any other reasonable situation, this philosophy of risk vs reward is staunchly held up. In every facet of our lives from hobbies to work, the more effort you put into something, the higher the returns should be.

I just don't understand why that idea alienates you soooo much. It's like asking all science fair ribbons just be participation maroon because having a 1st place ribbon might hurt someone's feelings. /facepalm.

I wonder how much bickering would be solved by getting rid of raiding.

Not a whole lot when your max/drac pots, crafted meldable gear, Materia V, etc etc suddenly stop being bought as frequently. You just assume that raiders have little to no impact. Outside of the glamour economy, who do you think is buying up all this min/max stuff? It surely is not the causal player logging for 30 mins for their daily expert.

Not to mention we can see how terrible a game becomes when raiding is abandoned. Go google LotRO and you can see what is in store for FFXIV.

I don't see that as a problem, because as I said, to me, difficulty serves no purpose other than to engage people of different levels of skill/talent. The increased engagement as such is the motivation to take it on, because a lower level would just bore you but that level doesn't. Thus, different difficulties provide value - people who would be bored otherwise are being entertained by the game. What destroys value is trying to get people to play on a level they do not find "right" for them, be it too high or too low. And the issue here is probably more that people who prefer a higher difficulty level have to do too much content on a lower difficulty level than they'd prefer.

We already know that concept does not work. SCoB savage had poor participation rates. Both Gordias and Midas Savage have had poor participation rates. How many people do you have to see post that raiding is not worth it to them because the rewards suck? These forums have been littered with those responses for the last year.

While what your saying has a lot of merit, we need to engage as many players as possible with different content, you fail to see that incentive is the other side to that coin. This game has some of the worst carrots I have ever seen in any mmo ever. Even guildwars 2, a pure horizontal progression MMO, offers VERY unqiue looking rewards for doing end game stuff, something midas or gordias could not even manage to do.

That aside: I do think the single-player comparison is perfectly valid in that regard. A person who plays Divinity Original Sin on Tactician Mode likely doesn't give a rats ass if someone out there is playing it on Explorer, because the experience of the other doesn't impact their own. In an MMO, the same applies - if one group does a boss on hard mode and another on easy mode, the experience of one group does not impact the experience of the other.
And yes, you share the same domain - both of those groups will end up idling in Idyllshire. And that is the point where people want difficulty to come with higher rewards, out of the desire to flaunt their tokens of esteem when the two groups meet in order to elevate their own ego. Their experience is completely independent, but this social aspect is why "effort must meet reward" and I don't think it's a positive one that deserves to be supported. Effort is the wrong word by the way, because everyone has different capabilities and it will take some people far more effort than others to achieve the same result as others - a colorblind person will have far more trouble dodging some colored circles than people with normal sight. "Performance" is what you mean.

I don't care if someone examines me, I surely don't examine people or stand around idylshire afk, I have better things to do. What bothers me is KNOWING of these incentive problems and that they go unaddressed. You know how unmotivating it is to actually log on and play when I feel like all the rewards are homogenized anyways? That's the HUGE problem this game is facing, one that will not be fixed until ALL rewards in this game are intrinsically rewarding. The only way we can make all rewards, from casual to HC content alike, more compelling is starting from the top down. You can't make casual and midcore rewards meaningful without also making savage rewards meaningful.

The tome grind feels like slavery because it's intrinsically unrewarding. It's unrewarding because every few months, everyone's character progression is homogenized.

I have been raid logging for the last 6-7 months, I could really care less who is standing around idylshire.

The problem is that item level is how we progress out characters... For that to function properly, you should have to put some effort into progressing, yet I wouldn't really say you need to here... They've actively undermined character progression with their difficulty curve, or lack of... All you need to do for i240, the current cap, is do dungeons which are tuned such that a moron could clear them, and participate in Hunts, which are a complete zergfest... That's it, you might have to wait a while, but ultimately that is all you need to do to take your character to the peak...

When players any step above that skill level (and I'd hope that's all players, but I've seen the Duty Finder...) become aware of that, it starts to devalue content... What is the point in doing Midas? Certainly not character progression, character progression is practically automatic in this game given enough time... Yes it's an inherently egotistical exercise to do Midas to laud your riches over others, but who cares? Is the current generation of casual gamer so thin skinned that they see a prick doing such and actually feel bad about it? I mean, I feel bad whenever I've seen people doing that, but only because I felt sorry for the poor sod who feels the need to show off like that... In my day, we had hardcore gamers who were OK people, and I looked up to them and wanted to get the same rewards, that motivated me to keep playing. Then we had ass-holes with the same gear who acted like Gods gift to humanity because of it, and we laughed at them and correctly asserted that they have no life... And that also motivated me to keep playing, so I could knock them down a peg... I see no problem with this... XIV is just a shallower game for its attempts to normalize everyone... They've destroyed my sense of progression by just resetting us all on a bi-patchly basis, I've not made my character stronger, they've just released and handed me a new item level. I've not gotten better at the game, there is nothing to get better at... Every dungeon is the same as the last and raids difficulty curves are all over the place... The only place none of this is true, oddly enough, is PvP... There are people who are better than me at PvP, and I kinda look up to them. There are people who are better than me at PvP, and complete jerks, and that's fine too... The Leaderboard and Wolf Coat work as a better form of progression that item levels as well... It's really kind of scary that, of all the aspects in this game, I'd probably praise PvP the most because of this... PvP isn't even that good in XIV... Final Fantasy, a notoriously PvE franchise, and... Just... What happened? Did I enter the Twilight Zone again...

Seriously, what is actually wrong with casuals getting a lower item level? If casuals have no progression, I see a problem with that, but that's not what I think anyone is suggesting... Everyone should be able to experience character progressions, but I really don't see the problem with someone who puts more effort into the game reaching a higher level... That should be a good thing, that's how you motivate people to get better at the game, to invest in it and keep playing... Why would I invest in a game I barely need to play in order to progress to the top? I built my Relic off PvP, I hardly touched PvE for it... When we get to 3.55, and I've got my Anima to i275 or whatever, I'll effectively have gotten to the peak of Everest, but I sure as hell didn't climb here... Am I supposed to feel accomplished in that fact?

You are so on point I wanted to make you smile!