I Hate Charibert Even More Now (Tales From the Dragonsong War Update) (SPOILER)

[Cilia]

This isn't the first of its kind. Whether it's supplemental material or simply straight from the dev team's mouth, extra information and details are always going to be found outside of the game simply because it's easier to explain than to confine everything in whatever limits the game has.

I'm well aware, thank you.

[dalta]

[LineageRazor]

Considering the history of the war and possible shady things from the church, the church and its people would never be seen in a sympathetic view.

Don't forget that all these shady dealings are not common knowledge in the church. The sordid origins of Ishgard are a story known to the Archbishop and maybe a handful of other high-ranking individuals. The majority of the clergy, and certainly the majority of the followers of Halone are guilty only of believing what they've been taught for generations upon generations. When the truth was revealed, there were a few holdouts to the old dogma in the church, to be sure, but game dialog indicates that the church is now going through a period of revisioning. The majority of Ishgardians very likely DO believe in and worship Halone, after all. That hasn't changed. Once the church cleans itself up, they'll be fine with it.

Thordan and his ilk, on the other hand, will likely be branded as villains in the consciousness of the people of Ishgard - but that doesn't mean they can't be presented to the PLAYERS as sympathetic in their motivations. This has already been done, honestly; from the mouth of Thordan himself, he explained that while he knew that perpetuating the lie was wrong, the everpresent threat of Nidhogg meant that anything short of a unified front would lead to the deaths of everyone in Ishgard - and to reveal the horrible truth WOULD throw Ishgard into chaos, just as it is doing now. And so he kept the secret, all while scheming and dealing to acquire enough power to end Nidhogg's threat for good.

Of course, it's true that Nidhogg wouldn't necessarily have destroyed Ishgard once it was thrown into chaos. Niddy intended to torture them all for as long as possible, after all, so he might have reined things in a bit until Ishgard's civil war played itself out, and then gotten back to tormenting them in earnest. However, Thordan did not know this; this was a revelation that the Warrior of Light discovered during the main scenario - the fact that for all the horrors Ishgard had endured over the centuries, Nidhogg was only PLAYING with them and could have at any time swooped in and wiped them all out.

At any rate the hooks are there to present Thordan as a well-intentioned extremist. He was honest with the Warrior of Light about his dealings with the Ascians, and was frank about the fact that he knew they were bad news and intended to betray them when he got the chance - which he DID. The anguish of knowing the truth about Ishgard's shady origins and making the hard decision to continue the lie, he shared with his son, who then relayed it to us. The question is whether you, as a player, believe in his underlying good intentions or not. Was he a man in a hard position who made some ruthless decisions to bring about what he thought was the only way to secure Ishgard's future? Or was he a power-hungry mad tyrant who cared not a whit about anything but ruling over all with an iron fist, and told whatever lies he needed to to achieve that goal?

Personally, I go for the man-in-a-hard-position theory. Honestly, he had no reason to lie to Aymeric. He could have just locked the guy up without an audience - or even killed him outright. Why bother trying to justify himself to Aymeric? He wanted at least one person to know the painful position he was in, someone to know that he had reasons beyond personal power for doing the awful things he was doing.

Certainly, he crossed the threshold into megalomaniacal supervillainy when he actually became a Primal and declared his intent to rule the world, but that could simply have been a side effect of becoming a Primal in the first place. The only other individual we've known to transform into a Primal was Ysayle, and she had the benefit of having the Echo to protect her.

Veering back to the subject of this thread, Thordan's cleaning out the old guard as illustrated in the "What Remains of a Knight" story could also be seen as an example of this ruthless pragmatism. While, to be fair, Thordan's hand was not shown to be directly involved in Ser Vaindreau's "retirement", as it was a black-robed man (Ascian, is what we're likely being lead to assume) that provided the "intelligence" Charibert used as an excuse to do away with him, it's likely that he tacitly approved of the treachery. Vaindreau's suspicions and snooping had made him a liability - not to mention the fact that he was getting on in years and was probably not the martial powerhouse he used to be (and martial skill seemed to be a requirement for Thordan's Knights of the Round). That doesn't mean he had to like it, however.

[Frederick22]

Thordan did not know this; this was a revelation that the Warrior of Light discovered during the main scenario - the fact that for all the horrors Ishgard had endured over the centuries, Nidhogg was only PLAYING with them and could have at any time swooped in and wiped them all out.

Vaindreau's suspicions and snooping had made him a liability - not to mention the fact that he was getting on in years and was probably not the martial powerhouse he used to be (and martial skill seemed to be a requirement for Thordan's Knights of the Round). That doesn't mean he had to like it, however.

Thordan knew this, he knew he hole truth. About Nidhogg's vengance and how he was torturin Ishgard. Aymeric say it, he was not willing to make such a change on Ishgard and trusting on its people. He prefer to rule the world.

Thordan was not inoccent of this matter, he got warned that was being seeing. So he acted, and lied after it. It has nothing to do with Ishgard's old rules of who and who not is a heretic.

[Cilia]

The problem with sympathizing with Thordan is... well, his actions were completely unnecessary at the time, showing that past the surface he was just a power-hungry megalomaniac.

The truth behind the war wasn't known to Ishgard at large. The populace didn't know. The clergy didn't know. The High Houses didn't know. The Lord Commander of the Temple Knights didn't know. Implicitly, only thirteen people in all Ishgard were aware of the truth - the Archbishop and his Heavens' Ward.

As for sympathizing with Thordan... well, it's possible. However, the problem with his motive is that by the time he springs into action, it's completely unnecessary - we've dealt with Nidhogg and ended the war (or so we believed). That he should continue with his plan, even though it's not necessary in the slightest, betrays his hunger for power that lies beneath his sympathetic motive. I can agree that Ishgard didn't need to suffer eternally for Thordan I's sin, but continuing with the "Knights of the Round" plan after it was no longer necessary shows he just wanted to rule the world as a God-King.

[Nalien]

That he should continue with his plan, even though it's not necessary in the slightest, betrays his hunger for power that lies beneath his sympathetic motive.

Well... His plan was to gain power to defend Ishgard... Nidhogg wasn't the only threat facing Ishgard; There's still Garlemald, who'd actually begun pushing close to Ishgard, given their presence in Abalathia's Spine, seemingly with the Eorzean Alliance being none the wiser (was it just ol' one arm who didn't know about the Gration, or was it the whole Alliance?)... Then there's the bringers of chaos themselves, motives aside, his methodology beats what we've been doing to combat them... There was still plenty of use for his God-King after Nidhogg was out of the picture...

After the Triad story though, I wonder if he was entirely himself by the time we met him... He may have gone into this with the best of intentions, but after becoming a Primal some degree of corruption isn't out of the question... Ysayle didn't display any signs of such corruption though, having seemingly summoned more often too... I imagine Crystals of Light are some desu ex machina for that, though...

I'm not even sure if he was in the wrong for wanting to perpetuate Ishgards lie at that point... If he had the best of intentions by becoming God-King (which I doubt), then he kind of needs that lie to remain in place... Primals are partly faith-fueled, and King Thordan reaps his faith harvest from Ishgards fabricated history... If its populace suddenly (and rightly) vilified Thordan because the truth got out, how exactly would that impact King Thordan? From his perspective, he had good reason to stop Aymeric revealing the truth...

[Jonnycbad]

I would love a Minstrel's Ballad where we have to fight the Heaven's Ward and Nidhogg simultaneously.

SICKNESS MUST BE DIVE BOMBED

[Cilia]

Thordan VII's purported reason for becoming a Primal was "to free [Ishgard] from the sins of antiquity;" to decisively defeat Nidhogg and free the country from his eternal torment in response to Thordan I's sin. By the time he is confronted with the truth, however, Nidhogg has been slain (for the time being) and Ishgard has no evident threats. Thordan doesn't even try to justify his actions to Aymeric in the Echo flashback, simply explaining the lie behind the War in greater detail, and when confronted after the Vault simply tells Aymeric (and the rest of the group) that he won't expose the lie because it'll tear apart the foundations on which Ishgard was built. When encountered in the Neurolink Nacelle and confronted in the Singularity Reactor, he states that he intends to rule the world as a God-King and end conflict in so doing.

These are his given explanations for his actions. Anything else is just trying to paint him in a positive light without evidence to back it up. It's entirely possible he could have turned his power against more of the Ascians and the Garleans (the latter pretty likely given their proclivity towards overt military campaigns of conquest - the latter much less likely given their tendency towards covert operations as manipulators) but he doesn't cite that as a reason for his actions. He is sympathetic on the surface, and his pained expressions show frequent doubt, but ultimately his reason for going forward with the "Knights of the Round" plan was a lust for power. To believe otherwise is to sweep the evidence pointing to this conclusion under the rug.

Whether or not Thordan had the Echo is up for debate; however I am inclined to believe he did. It's the only way he could have maintained his human (Spoken) psyche as King Thordan, and the Ascians are known to be able to gift it to others somehow.

Sure, everything Thordan VII does is justified from his perspective because he benefits from those actions. Nobody else does - they'll either die fighting him or die as one of his thralls, unwillingly fighting for a cause they may not believe in. We're able to stop it before it goes that far, but that's all he really would have accomplished: more senseless death.

Even men with the greatest intentions start believing their own lies.

[Corvinoobus]

First of all, 3.3 ENDING SPOILER warnings for those of you thinking of clicking this cause woo, dev tracker.

Ser Charibert's family name, as we now know from the new short story, is

de Courcillan

, which is a noble name, but not one of the four high families.

Hate to say it, but typos resulting in bad lore must be purged, mhm mhm. That particular name should not have a "de" in it, and it will be deleted with prejudice, hopefully sooner than later. Sorry about that!

[Jacien]

First of all, 3.3 ENDING SPOILER warnings for those of you thinking of clicking this cause woo, dev tracker.



Hate to say it, but typos resulting in bad lore must be purged, mhm mhm. That particular name should not have a "de" in it, and it will be deleted with prejudice, hopefully sooner than later. Sorry about that!

I'm surprised you're still on the Dev Tracker. IIRC, Fernehawles was pulled off from ever appearing on it ever again.