Do healer need to help doing dps? Especially cleric stance?

[Gemina]

I am one of the most DPS obsessed healers you'll find, and I still hold that this is the only way to achieve mastery of healing. I have very strong opinions about this and I *will* harshly judge people's ability, first of all my own, because I also strife to be my own worst critic. I just try to not be an ass about it, because ripping people apart with expletives is not constructive criticism.

When I say "bad player", I refer to their ability and that alone. If someone is behaving like an asshole, I will refer to them as such, good player or not. I consider skill and behavior two independent factors, and I simply am of the opinion that we should not accept mediocrity in either. Always strife to be better, be it in ability or behavior.

At the end of the day, you are requiring what isn't necessary to complete an instance, but at least you understand the counter-productivity of trying to beat it into people's heads.

I will never call a skilled player with a shitty attitude a good player. At best, I will call them a 'skilled player'. A good player entails both skill and attitude. With that said, I recognize that I shouldn't call players with low skill/good attitudes good players. I should refer to them as nice players. Nice players are all that I require to have fun while grouping with others, and when I do group, I hope I get good players. Hopefully that makes sense as it is clear we speak in different contexts.

We simply seem to have different mindsets here. I don't view evaluating others and having fun as mutually exclusive. In fact, I think they are both necessary, because - and I speak from experience here - not holding people to higher standards quickly devolves into an exercise in frustration, which is anything but fun.

Everyone has different ways off having fun, so I am not going to tell you that what I find fun, you should as well. However, how is this statement true if by holding people to high standards and expectations you continuously end up frustrated and disappointed? How is that fun? I really can't be bothered with that. It is a complete and total waste of my time to set a bar of standards for other players. I am as passionate about my role as healer as anyone. I do my best to sustain the group whilst pushing my DPS as much as possible, and I am my own worst critique. It's hard enough dealing with it as an individual. I never expect any player to put in the same work I do, because the amount of work I do is overkill to clear an instance. All I can hope for from other players is that they care about other people's time. This alone entails that they will try their best. That is the only expectation I have of other players. I can only worry about what I have control over, and the way other people choose to play is not one of them.

You keep bringing up specific, isolated scenarios that mean nothing on their own. Of course a healer's skill cannot be measured only by having Cleric on. Neither can it be measured by being able to heal through a difficult situation. It's the big picture. And in that big picture, Cleric is an important factor. So is the ability to function under pressure and deal with unexpected situations, how much unnecessary or inefficient healing they do, and, yes, how much DPS they can do along with all these other things.

I am? If you're referring to raiding and EX instances, then you are bringing up, what? 5%-10% of the game's total content? If we want to look at the big and total picture, why would you exclude "isolated scenarios that mean nothing on their own"? With that said how is a healer being put to the test an isolated scenario? It happens every time things are not going well. Reference the healer confession thread, bad tank threads, DF woes threads, or the multitude of other threads where healers talk about an instance being much harder than it needs to be. Your statement to me sounds like you can't see past your own views. Even your sig, I'm sure you see it as statement that healer DPS is required based off of your passionate arguments. But that's not what that statement is saying at all. It is encouraging healer DPS, not requiring it.

If looking at the big picture, which I agree does include use of Cleric, you also have to remember that most people spend the majority of their time in this game outside of groups, and in a solo situation, healer DPS IS required in order to survive it. If you want to reference just grouping, then we are NOT looking at the big and total picture. So ultimately my question is if healer DPS is not required to clear an instance, then why do YOU require it? It really just sounds like setting yourself up for disappointment time and time again. I know all about that, which is why I now avoid it and don't create unnecessary expectations of other healers and players in general.

[Emeke]

Healers should heal, top priority. I'm getting tired of cueing into dungeons where the healer starts complaining if they ACTUALLY have to stop dpsing and help someone out. As a sum I think I raise more then the healer. People have bad days, lag issues, rl distractions, second run and still learning mechanics, etc. Instead of letting someone die...be a team player and keep everyone going.

[_slowpoke_]

At the end of the day, you are requiring what isn't necessary to complete an instance, but at least you understand the counter-productivity of trying to beat it into people's heads.

Yes, I am requiring that people put in more effort than just the bare minimum. That's called being respectful to your fellow players. And, again, I *am* going to beat it into people's heads that they are supposed to put in more than the bare minimum, but - also again - I'm just not going to be an ass about it.

I will never call a skilled player with a shitty attitude a good player. At best, I will call them a 'skilled player'. A good player entails both skill and attitude. With that said, I recognize that I shouldn't call players with low skill/good attitudes good players. I should refer to them as nice players. Nice players are all that I require to have fun while grouping with others, and when I do group, I hope I get good players. Hopefully that makes sense as it is clear we speak in different contexts.

I'm not gonna argue any more semantics about this with you. It's pointless. We're not even disagreeing here for the most part.

However, how is this statement true if by holding people to high standards and expectations you continuously end up frustrated and disappointed?

I don't think you understood me correctly. I don't get frustrated when people are held to higher standards and are expected to improve, or because I do this. I said that this happens if you don't do this, because it creates an environment where people are fine with doing the bare minimum, where people fail on simple things because they expect to be carried, where dungeons take forever for no reason except laziness, where people do not strife to improve, and where people hide behind "having fun" to not improve themselves. That's not fun, that's severely frustrating.

I am? If you're referring to raiding and EX instances, then you are bringing up, what? 5%-10% of the game's total content?

Because it's the only content that actually matters in terms of ability. Anything else is face-roll tier easy and I honestly don't even know how people can bear doing it without DPSing. I would fall asleep of boredom.

Even your sig, I'm sure you see it as statement that healer DPS is required based off of your passionate arguments. But that's not what that statement is saying at all. It is encouraging healer DPS, not requiring it.

It doesn't mean that, you are right. Because it means something else - that you are lazy and disrespectful if you intentionally do not DPS when you have time to do so. It's a reminder that you are ignoring half your toolkit if you don't DPS. And that the only way to escape utter mediocrity as a healer is to embrace Cleric Stance. It's not a requirement, as much as being nice to other people is not technically a requirement - yet it's still something you would expect from others because it's the respectful thing to do.

[Amaret]

Healers should heal, top priority. I'm getting tired of cueing into dungeons where the healer starts complaining if they ACTUALLY have to stop dpsing and help someone out. As a sum I think I raise more then the healer. People have bad days, lag issues, rl distractions, second run and still learning mechanics, etc. Instead of letting someone die...be a team player and keep everyone going.

No reason to res a dps which does 4 times less dps than the healer and is able to walk/use shortcut.
Team play doesn't mean i have to carry someones ass who blatantly refuse to get better. The players get worse and worse because they get everything served on a silver tablet...

[gumas]

I'm wondering how our dear OP is doing now

Still alive and grinding eso right now, iam pretty content being AST this day, in fact i find it more enjoyable than my dps class (bard)

My behavior in stance dancing is pretty situational though, if our tank is PLD then i can do it pretty smooth for example. If it DG that iam still pretty new with, i just pop combust 1 and 2 then stance back to heal. I still stick to heal stance 100% if its boss fight (unless the boss is super easy like those early DG)

I guess i got lucky with my party because so far everyone seems okay with me sticking to "20% dps 80% heal" in most case.

[Taika]

Don't be this person:



Qarn normal in leveling roulette, I noticed SCH seemed to be on /follow on tank and didn't cast anything but 1 adlo between pulls. Asked if they were afk, this was the reply. I tried to vote dismiss, didn't go through so I left myself. Don't be the person the rest of your party carries through, take part in the fights, be useful.

[Lastelli]

A healer not dpsing is the same as a BRD not using WM because they feel "uncomfortable" about cast times (btw is "uncomfortable" even a justification for being bad? I think it isn't), or a BLM not using enochian because refreshing it is soooo bothersome, or a DRG not using botd, NIN without huton and so on. You can still complete your dungeon...it'll just take twice as long. We call them bad/lazy players. You decide what kind of player you want to be because it's your money after all, but this won't stop your fellow party members from judging you.

[DynamoAce]

If you can DPS as a healer when you have a spare moment/there's an opening? Great in my opinion. I feel if everyone is healed up nicely, got their buffs/shields depending on your class, and you've got an opening/your party isn't about to take a chunk of damage then it can help make a difference in helping out your party. I'm sure they'd really appreciate it too.
In a sense it also helps to be doing that instead of just standing idle, waiting for someone to take damage so they can be healed.

[Critical-Limit]

My sister is a healer this is her literal first game ever let alone first mmo.

Watching her play and seeing how she doesn't auto-get things and how they work really opened my eyes to just how low of an understanding someone can have and why I don't attack anyone no matter how bad unless they foster a no-improve personality.

And this BS that it's first time healer don't dps at all. You can practice dps as soon as you want. If you want to get it in your muscle memory earlier so you're not relearning later go ahead. If my scrubby sister can do it. Anyone should be able to.

Has she caused a couple wiped in the process of learning to dps while healing? Sure but she's new to not only the game, but gaming in general

And she's already better than level 60 healers because she's willing to listen and try.

[DaftVagrant]

I see both extremes, some healers just sit there doing absolutely nothing, not even DPSing out of CS. I've also had healers that get caught up dpsing and forget to heal me as tank. Nothing worse than watching a couple of holy go off as I slowly die. I'm not the best stance dancer out there, but as SCH I try to keep my dots up at a minimum. I also suggest playing other roles to get an idea of what it is they deal with. It's easy to call someone lazy or bad if you don't fully understand their job.