"Who, WHAT are you?" *main story spoilers*

[Cilia]

So you're saying the power of their Echo got weaker?

Not per sé. It's more along the lines of speculation that the Blessing is also a means of reinforcing reality, as opposed to the Echo being able to break it down.

Lahabrea and Igeyorhm fuse with the Echo, "the power to break down the barriers of existence." The former attributes their dissolution to the power granted to us by the Blessing. Either the Blessing is capable of reinforcing reality, or we've simply become so freakishly powerful with it turned back "on" we're able to beat down the Ascian Prime until the energy needed to violate Hydaelyn's law can no longer be provided.

Morningstar1337's post reminded me that Y'shtola does comment on the Warriors of Darkness in 3.1, and in the Japanese version, as Fenral translated it in another thread, says:

...

So we do have at least some indication that Y'shtola considers them to be very strange and dangerous. Though in the Japanese version she omits her warning, her tone itself is cautious. We can imagine that the aether of a (former) Warrior of Light would change and feel so strange if he'd become a power hungry creature.

I wouldn't presume as much yet. In both versions Y'shtola merely mentions that something is off about the WoDs. It's more along the lines of being something strange as opposed to someone strange - their character would likely not influence their aetherial signature or makeup. What makes the Ascians off in aetherial terms, isn't that they're all a bunch of megalomaniacs devoted wholly to Zodiark's return, it's that their aether is alien compared to anything on Hydaelyn. The same is likely true of the WoDs.

So there are various types of Auracite, most likely, and the one we're using is a temporary variant. If not that, perhaps there are simply more advanced methods of using it and we just don't know about them. The thing is, unless Dalamud was made of, or at least comprised *some* Auracite, the Allagans seem to have used a different material and/or technology to trap Primals.

Maybe. Possibly. Who knows?

... there must be other types of Auracite. The only kind we ever use is specifically called "White Auracite," never just Auracite as Unukalhai describes it. Moenbryda also notes that it has a very limited containment time, so it's not suitable for use as a primal prison - aether battery.

Bahamut was kept physically restrained inside Dalamud. Perhaps Auracite was involved, but not to keep him contained, and it's a moot point anyway since he's gone (story-wise).

First of all, I appreciate that. Second, I'm not exactly well versed in most movies (lack of interest), so I'm not even sure what that's from. Third, well, I was agreeing with you, just sort of expounding on it. Unless you feel that I just repeated what you were saying?

It's not from a film. That is Giorgio A. Tsukolas, one of the main "theorists" on the History Channel program "Ancient Aliens." Known for his wild hair and even wilder "theories," I am fond of using a certain .gif of him saying "Is such a thing even possible? ... yes it is!" as no matter how outlandish and insane any "theory" anybody comes up with may be, it is always technically possible.

Given my tendency to develop actual theories based on empirical evidence we're given, I'm not fond of such speculation. I do have some favorite hypotheses, but without any evidence to really back them up generally refrain from doing as Tsukolas does.

[Tenkuu]

The more I think of it, the more it seems to me that SE are using a similar idea from Dissidia here (the first one, not Duodecium which just had an excuse plot and the non-existent plot of the recent arcade version), where like Cosmos placing a portion of Her life into the crystals that her 'champions' recover, knowing that it would weaken Herself fatally, something the antagonists would be quick to exploit, in much the same way, what if the Crystals of Light have actually been infused directly with Hydaelyn's power, which is actually what has weakened Herself to empower us instead?

The antagonists in this case have very cleverly taken advantage of our link to Hydaelyn. Lahabrea unleashed Ultima fully expecting her to expend a good deal of her power to protect us. Somewhat less expected for him but likely still draining on Hydaelyn was the weapon of Light that she granted us to drive Lahabrea from Thancred's body. Though many may see Lahabrea as having failed, he accomplished much as far as weakening Hydaelyn went. In addition, from what I can make out of Y'shtola's comments to Thancred in the Japanese version in the scene when he is about to enter the Antitower with us, at least part of the danger that exposure to aether poses to him results from his possession by Lahabrea.

And that, like Cosmos, ultimately it would result in Hydaelyn''s physical 'death' knowing that the Ascians and by extension, Zodiark, would not waste time in trying to eliminate her... but, as her life continues to 'live on' within the Crystals and by extension, through us as her champion, allowing Her to finally destroy Zodiark and the Ascians for good and end the cycles of Umbral and Astral forever? Note the similar terms here: 'champion', 'crystals infused with the goddess's light', 'goddess of Light and god of darkness', 'Cycles of war/destruction/death/darkness and peace/rebuilding/life/light'. Making this whole thing one giant Batman Gambit on the part of Hydaelyn.

The crystals are more of a conduit we use to access her power. This seems especially evident when they grow dark as Midgarsormr seals the Blessing. He is literally severing our connection to her, as he says himself. Then there is Praetorium, where our chest glows when Hydaelyn intervenes to protect us through our crystals. So I would say that yes, we are empowered by the crystals at Hydaelyn's expense, but that no, Hydaelyn does not continue to live on in the crystals. In fact, if Hydaelyn were to perish or be destroyed, whichever the case may be, I suspect that her crystals would also be destroyed as a result.

[Tenkuu]

Not per sé. It's more along the lines of speculation that the Blessing is also a means of reinforcing reality, as opposed to the Echo being able to break it down.

Lahabrea and Igeyorhm fuse with the Echo, "the power to break down the barriers of existence." The former attributes their dissolution to the power granted to us by the Blessing. Either the Blessing is capable of reinforcing reality, or we've simply become so freakishly powerful with it turned back "on" we're able to beat down the Ascian Prime until the energy needed to violate Hydaelyn's law can no longer be provided.

That makes a lot of sense. Well put.

I wouldn't presume as much yet. In both versions Y'shtola merely mentions that something is off about the WoDs. It's more along the lines of being something strange as opposed to someone strange - their character would likely not influence their aetherial signature or makeup. What makes the Ascians off in aetherial terms, isn't that they're all a bunch of megalomaniacs devoted wholly to Zodiark's return, it's that their aether is alien compared to anything on Hydaelyn. The same is likely true of the WoDs.

Is it ever actually mentioned anywhere that their aether is alien though? The video explanation I recall us (and the other Scions) being given rather seemed to imply that they were ordinary beings with such a powerful command of the Echo (in the case of the Overlords) that their souls could survive outside of a vessel for a period of time as a result of their being able to move them at will. Whereas we do not fully comprehend the Echo and have no control over it, the Ascians seem to have attained mastery of it and it never seems to adversely affect them, such as with headaches and fainting spells that we still get.

Bahamut was kept physically restrained inside Dalamud. Perhaps Auracite was involved, but not to keep him contained, and it's a moot point anyway since he's gone (story-wise).

Well, you were talking about what the Allagans did so it seemed logical to bring up Bahamut as a prime example. Not that we know much more about the Triad's bindings though, so in that sense it is indeed moot either way.

It's not from a film. That is Giorgio A. Tsukolas, one of the main "theorists" on the History Channel program "Ancient Aliens." Known for his wild hair and even wilder "theories," I am fond of using a certain .gif of him saying "Is such a thing even possible? ... yes it is!" as no matter how outlandish and insane any "theory" anybody comes up with may be, it is always technically possible.

Sounds interesting. The closest thing to that that I've seen would probably be William Shatner's Weird or What series or the Urban Legends TV show. Feel free to correct me if you feel that those shows are nothing like the one you're talking about though.

Given my tendency to develop actual theories based on empirical evidence we're given, I'm not fond of such speculation. I do have some favorite hypotheses, but without any evidence to really back them up generally refrain from doing as Tsukolas does.

Speculation is more idle and can lead to hypotheses, which in turn can lead to theories. I see no harm in either, and speculation can often be more fun if nothing else.

[Tenkuu]

The thing is both sides in the light/dark conflict seek to banish, destroy or otherwise unmake the other. Perhaps what is needed is not destruction, but a passing of the torch?

The thing is, there is light and darkness in all people. It's even in something as simple as our mortality: all life must eventually end to allow for the growth of new life. However, in the case of Hydaelyn, she seemed to have banished Zodiark not because of his darkness, but because of his greed and ambition that threatened to cause destruction.

I've had the consideration that we are blend of both of their power. If we were purely of the light, as some suggest, then Dark Knight would be near impossible for us.

Spoiler tagging because the tag above is for MSQ spoilers not class quest spoilers

We do have a sentient dark side we come to terms with after all which could give credence to this theory.
We have our Warrior of Light Persona, and this Persona born of Darkness basically saying we dipp into both equally.

If anything was purely of the Light, I suspect that it wouldn't be given choices. In our case, we would be tempered by Hydaelyn with no free will left to us. However, Hydaelyn allows and encourages us to think for ourselves and make our own decisions.

As for Dark Knight, darkness is not all that there is to it. If anything, it is the job that gives our character the most freedom, which is something that Hydaelyn encourages and even actively fosters in us. The Dark Knight acts in accordance with their morals and feelings, and so does the Warrior of Light, albeit with the guidance of friends and allies.

[Cilia]

Is it ever actually mentioned anywhere that their aether is alien though? The video explanation I recall us (and the other Scions) being given rather seemed to imply that they were ordinary beings with such a powerful command of the Echo (in the case of the Overlords) that their souls could survive outside of a vessel for a period of time as a result of their being to move them at will. Whereas we do not fully comprehend the Echo and have no control over it, the Ascians seem to have attained mastery of it and it never seems to adversely affect them, such as with headaches and fainting spells, as it does us.

It actually isn't, but given the fact they exist outside of space-time and are capable of freely moving about space, not to mention the Ascian Prime being a violation of Hydaelyn's existential laws, I can only presume they are "alien," so to speak. To be fair, there's not really evidence either way, but whether or not the Ascians are alien is a digression - the WoDs almost certainly are, as Y'shtola notices something off about Darklander's aetherial signature no matter what language you want to reference. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sounds interesting. The closest thing to that that I've seen would probably be William Shatner's Weird or What series or the Urban Legends TV show. Feel free to correct me if you feel that those shows are nothing like the one you're talking about though.

It's just a bunch of talking heads... talking for an hour about how everything from the extinction of the dinosaurs to the building of the pyramids to Beethoven was the work of extraterrestrials. Unless you're into such wild and unverifiable speculation, it's not good...

... for anything but a few laughs, anyway. (The image and .gif are jokes. At my own expense sometimes as well, hence "I'm not doing this just to be offensive.")

Speculation is more idle and can lead to hypotheses, which in turn can lead to theories. I see no harm in either, and speculation can often be more fun if nothing else.

A hypothesis is just an idea. A theory has evidence to back it up. 95% of the "theories" people throw around here have no in-universe evidence to back them up, and the chances of getting any are slim to none. (Or: Theory: The Warrior of Light is Zodiark. You'll notice I used the Tsukolas .gif and didn't bother explaining why that's highly implausible because there's so much auspicious reasoning and no in-universe or even out-of universe evidence to really back such a "theory" up, while there is a veritable mountain of evidence against it. In the face of such nonsense, all you can really do is say "Yep, it's possible!" Note possible < plausible < probable in terms of likelihood.)

[Vexander]

In fact, if Hydaelyn were to perish or be destroyed, whichever the case may be, I suspect that her crystals would also be destroyed as a result.

I don't think this tallies up with the existence of Crystals of Light from previous eras, namely, Matoya's own crystal. Those Crystals are noted to be vastly superior to the ones we have in both power and use. If the crystals are truly linked to Hydaelyn in such a manner as you describe, Matoya's Crystal should only be as strong as our own, not far, far, far stronger as it is. If Hydaelyn's weakening causes the power of the Crystals to weaken, I imagine Matoya would be aware her crystal has lost power over the years, as Hydaelyn has been doing.

Personally I've always felt the Crystals of Light are similar to, say, Dragon Eyes, in that they, 'Recharge,' from the aether around them over time, and could be augmented by prayer. If every obscure, godless prayer made strengthened Hydaelyn's crystals, it'd be a curious turn of events, and possibly a means of saving Hydaelyn herself by creating a new Cult/Church/Religion with her at the center.

[Morningstar1337]

Personally I've always felt the Crystals of Light are similar to, say, Dragon Eyes, in that they, 'Recharge,' from the aether around them over time, and could be augmented by prayer. If every obscure, godless prayer made strengthened Hydaelyn's crystals, it'd be a curious turn of events, and possibly a means of saving Hydaelyn herself by creating a new Cult/Church/Religion with her at the center.

It would also bring up some...interesting implications that bring her more in line with the other deiform entities then we, (players, or civilians) would be conformable with

[Tenkuu]

I'd thought that Nabriales pretty much confirms it when stealing Tupsimati and making off with Minfilia...

Nabriales - "Unlike the others, I am not given to waiting. I shall take that staff and bring about the next Rejoining."
Minfilia - "...Rejoining? Then it was your doing! The Isle of Val, the scholars - all of it!"

And...he never acknowledges it, one way or the other. He just does it little teleport shift thing behind her again and starts on about taking the staff.

The English version is unclear but Minfilia in Japanese uses the term "anata tachi", so she is accusing the Ascians as a whole, not Nabriales specifically. As such, it makes sense that he offers no direct rebuttal. However, this guy has been going out of his way to correct or mock her whenever he felt that she was wrong or ignorant, so perhaps the fact that he has no reply to that accusation speaks for itself.

Not to mention all of the Scions, save Tataru and Minfilia, are equipped with special goggles that let them view aetherflow. Meaning if you really were a Primal, they'd have noticed from our first meeting, barring some kind of interference from Hydaelyn.

Actually, at your first meeting with Thancred/Y'shtola/Yda and Papalymo, you're still just a regular Echo user who has heard Hydaelyn's voice. By the end of that meeting after your first instanced fight, you have a crystal. From what I recall, I don't believe you have more than two by the time you meet Minfilia, and there is nothing particularly notable about you yet: you're still just a newbie adventurer with the Echo. Basically, I don't think there's much to notice about you at first. You draw the attention of an Overlord Ascian, but only after having met the Scions.

[Tenkuu]

Given that the world the Ascians lurk in is effectively created from aether by their own will though it would in theory be possible for someone strong enough at manipulating aether to create an entirely new world.

I'm just curious whether that's speculation or you read it somewhere? I'm not entirely sure why you believe that the Ascians created their own world. I don't recall seeing any indication of such, though I could easily have missed some bit of dialogue if it was something that I didn't understand at the time.

I don't think the conflict in the story could be resolved by giving rise to a new Hydaelyn though. It's fairly clear now that the separation of Light and Dark caused by Zodiark's excision is the core problem in the universe (regardless of why Hydaelyn did it). If we're to truly resolve things we'll need to find a way reunite those two forces and create a new 'Protocrystal'. The whole 'Light and Dark in harmony' trope is about as typical Final Fantasy as you can get as well.

The core problem seems to be those Rejoinings to me, and those are brought on purposely by the Ascians. Without those, would we truly have any big problems?

My hypothesis is that, again, they are from a destroyed world brought here by Elidibus - he is the one now Observing them (recognizing their existence) as opposed to Hydaelyn, which would explain the difference. More than likely it's just a throwaway line to let us know they're not friendlies, though.

I don't believe any of the Scions' lines are meant to be throaway, especially since it ties in to Y'shtola's new enhanced natural perception of aether. We are meant to know that something feels wrong about these people, it's almost like a blatant warning to your character, especially since it comes right after the Echo revealing to you that they used to be Warriors of Light similarly to you.

[PArcher]

Actually, at your first meeting with Thancred/Y'shtola/Yda and Papalymo, you're still just a regular Echo user who has heard Hydaelyn's voice. By the end of that meeting after your first instanced fight, you have a crystal. From what I recall, I don't believe you have more than two by the time you meet Minfilia, and there is nothing particularly notable about you yet: you're still just a newbie adventurer with the Echo. Basically, I don't think there's much to notice about you at first. You draw the attention of an Overlord Ascian, but only after having met the Scions.

This makes the case for "not a primal" even stronger; not one at the beginning (much less "outside" aether to cloud ours), so if we became one they'd know right away.

(and you only have the water crystal when you become a scion. The second was fire, after defeating ifrit)