Players Who Don't pull their weight.

[Seraphix2407]

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I know exactly what you mean and this is also part of the ''players who don't pull their weight'' problem. Ever seen the threads on this forum, post etc? Like on reddit? Many there say other people suck and they are actually being carried. I know when I've been carried tho, because when I do low performance and even have proof I admit it. It have happened before, but that's why in the first place I rarely play classes I know in the fights. If I do have some common knowledge how to play the class in the fight I'll give it a try. If I fail, I train myself up. Which is completely fine too, no doubt, people should have the chance to train themselves up and improve, which is the most importent key. However, I think the Op including myself talk about people who been in these fights for a long time and barely seen any noticable improvements. Their rotation might be bad as well and someone who tells them will make them aware they need a bit change.

For me it never been about making people bad, because If it was, I would never in the first place try to help. If someone has a bad attitude, why should I ignore that? I need to tell that person too, because to me, it's their atittude that needs to be fixed. Being a bad player doesn't mean they have bad attitude, it can be either lazy, no knowledge of rotation or class play, doesn't know how skills works etc. The list can go on and we are never sure of how it is. However many people refuses help and they think they are doing fine,when they aren't. This is a big problem. But I honestly like when people search up for rotations or ask people, because that means they actually care to improve. Some people don't do it but still want to improve, it's all about time when someone evenetually will tell them. And again I do agree with what you said, trying your best doesn't mean you aren't carried, because there are many who try their best but it's far from decent gameplay. I've been there and I admit it and that's excactly why I never run things with something I don't know how to play, unless I practice my rotation, try to dance the rotation with the fight.

To make it short; Yes there are people who think they perform good but they aren't good as they think they are. Then you have people who never say anything but they play bad. However, myself as a player I'm aware of how I play because I tell my friends to tell me how I perform.For me that's an importent key.

[RiceisNice]

There is a clear cut difference of someone who is struggling with the game, and someone who just can't be bothered. The latter is ones who do sub 400 because they're missing auto attacks and weaponskills more than half the time, due to not paying attention to the game for whatever reason. Not only is that being a detriment to hte party, you're disregarding the whole party play to begin with, and at that point I'm honestly wondering why are you even going to be playing the game if you can't be bothered to...well...play the game.

This also goes in line with how the dungeons are designed. It's been so low-tuned up to this point, I'm surprised people consider fights like Nidhogg normal to be difficult, when the wipes boil down to people standing in telegraphed AoEs, dps not meeting checks because they don't know how to play their jobs, or people dying to deafening bellow because healers aren't topping people off when it's needed. The game doesn't push players to require those in basic dungeon play; the only detriment is that the run takes longer and really won't resolve the base problem.

[Chirol86]

Then you play with a competitive group. I.E. PF.

If I have to start PFing in order to expect the absolute average out of people's jobs, what does that say about the community?
A few examples: Bards not using Foe's, Melees not AoEing, tanks not popping cooldowns, DRKs who don't Darkside, healers panic and heal the tank the moment they take damage in situations where it's 100% fine for them to DPS, WHMs who use Cure III on single target, Eos on Sic, etc. I don't mention things to anyone anymore (unless I'm mentor rouletting) simply because it's not worth the hassle, but as a result, things like this is the norm. I don't expect people to be savage level in anything that isn't savage, but I expect them to at least try. I'm tired of seeing people not even attempt their 3.0 rotations in boss fights and just be lazy.
Why is expecting people to apply minimum effort such a bad concept?

[Seraphix2407]

/yawn, /first world problems

/leaves thread :P

No offence, but each time a thread like this show up. You always say things like this. And it gives me a bad feeling of how you are as a player.

[Alistaire]

This is my very own opinion, but the "problem" about this game is that it has gathered many different audiences:

- WoW playerbase. FFXIV was more fresh and looked better, so some people migrated. PC
- FFXI playerbase. Same as the above. PC
- FF console fans. A large group of players that tried for the first time an MMO because final fantasy. Console

I'd say the first 2 groups are midcore on average (with a few hardcore groups), but the last group is a mix of players. Some of the people from the third group adapted to how an MMO works, but there are others that haven't, and the result is having Black Mages spamming blizzard III because resourceless DPS infinite mana. These players very often tell you to let them play the way they want, because they still think they are in FFX where they'd spam one spell and everything would blow up.
So the problem resides in having too different people with too different ambitions. Hell, there are people that have beautiful glamours but then they enter a dungeon with their i230 MNK and do 1k DPS, trust me people do seem to play this game for many different reasons xd.

Are you trying to say that console players can't read skill descriptions? No, the main problem here isn't console vs pc at least as far as dungeon-running.

And for Jetstream_fox, comparing nin not using suiton effectively to not aoe'ing properly is hilarious. Sure a NIN should use suiton effectively, but on a single target 10% party damage boost up 1/6 of the time is under a 2% boost. Where a NIN single-targetting a 6-mob pull is losing nearly 2/3 of their damage potential.

So you're complaining I'm ignoring your focus on a 2% loss while I'm talking about a 67% loss on the bigger part of time in dungeons and some pulls are easily bigger than that.

[Kazumac]

I think we should have a new vote option such as "Vote Electric Shock" and everyone playing must be "wired up" to receive their punishment should a majority of random players decide they need to vent their frustration on you. This is the ONLY way that we will ever fix the problem of not being able to fully manifest our rage and frustration. That person on the other end of said disrespectful character can no longer ignore upsetment directed at them; they will, literally, be able to feel the anger.

[Ninster]

My opinion goes back and forth on the OP's attitude that I see. For one thing, I'm not sure where you guys are finding these people, as I might run into the occasional doorstop player in DF, but it appears if I read the forums right, this is a widespread epidemic. Maybe I just have a sense of optimism, or a higher tolerance threshold than most. To me:

There's those that clearly aren't trying. Repeatedly die to the same mechanics, generally show zero to little improvement in performance throughout an encounter, or show very little thought to gear or rotation. While they may have had this attitude the whole time, this also applies to high-end players that are just straight-up bored with the instance/game and while capable of doing well, choose not to for the encounter. Then, when called out, resort to out-right trolling that in some cases forces a vote abandon.

There's those that have a learning curve, or other technical difficulties that keep them from fully taking the encounter head-on. Might die to the same mechanic a few times or different ones, but overall learn as they go along and try to do what they can. Maybe they picked up something new for their rotation or don't understand how a skill works and it's not going as smooth as it should be, and could probably use a suggestion. Or significant/inconsistent latency problems are making AoEs more difficult to dodge than they should be.

There's those that are on top of things and doing what they should. Solid rotation, general awareness of what's going on, using their support skills as needed. If they're of the helping mood, they'll give advice to groups 1 and 2, although group 2 will take it better than group 1 will. They also are in the best position to recognize those in group 1 for what they're doing and kick them for the good of groups 2 and themselves (and 4, if they haven't bailed yet).

Then there's those that require every instance to be one-shot. They leave on the first wipe, or if not as bold, will spam vote abandon as soon as it's available. "Forget the people in group 2!", they say, "This is hopeless." They're in a raid static, why should they have to drop down to everyone else's level when they've got this content memorized like the back of their hand? They might even say that a certain mechanic is JUST like [insert endgame raid here] without any kind of explanation whatsoever of just WHAT makes the two similar. If they get particularly irritated, they may resort to trolling antics that place them in group 1.

What I tend to read here is very little acknowledgement of a "grey" area, groups 2 and 3. And these groups get shafted the most when instances are abandoned. Particularly group 2, who's progress is significantly hindered by early vote abandons and the cluelessness of group 1, as some may have the kind of learning requirements where jumping into a new instance forces them to relearn everything over again with new people. The dev team can't do much about player skill, although they've begun introducing new graphic effects that better hint at what to do and training tools like the Hall of the Novice and Stone, Sea, Sky. To this end, it's up to the playerbase itself to get smart: kick those who won't learn, and play content as far as possible before choosing to abandon.

[Alistaire]

I think we should have a new vote option such as "Vote Electric Shock" and everyone playing must be "wired up" to receive their punishment should a majority of random players decide they need to vent their frustration on you. This is the ONLY way that we will ever fix the problem of not being able to fully manifest our rage and frustration. That person on the other end of said disrespectful character can no longer ignore upsetment directed at them; they will, literally, be able to feel the anger.

Oh idk, I think a player doing a roulette right before a reset feels a bit of pain in getting kicked. Had a tank a week ago pulled 3 bosses in a row in mhach and we made it clear we were asking people to wait and roll on loot to kick him, this was very close to the weekly reset. He started changing his tone and said he'd start playing nice but people weren't having it, and booted him. So he very likely lost his armor for the week and maybe even the penny/mhachi matter.

And that's a lot more satisfying than thinking somebody who deserved it got a shock because of it.

[Lan_Mantear]

Don't hold your breath for any such "ranking" feature to be added for faceroll-easy content like dungeons. Folks who won't play to their class's potential (lazy or stubborn), folks who CAN'T play to their class's potential (physically or mentally handicapped)? Their money is as green as anyone else's, and SE wants that money. SE WANTS experienced players to carry these folks. Preferably teach them, as well, but the important thing is for them to feel included, feel that they're making progress, and keep them subscribed. Don't expect any features to be added to the game that will alienate them.

And, for content like dungeons, there's honestly little harm in it. So your 20-minute dungeon run becomes 30 minutes instead because your DPS won't aoe (or can't seem to understand why it's a good idea)? Boo hoo. Suck it up, and spend those extra ten minutes. The more bads we keep interested in the game, the more money the game makes, and the more they can invest in making the game better. There is NO good justification for elitism when it comes to faceroll content. That MNK wearing all MND accessories? Carry them hard. That role-playing "Ice Mage"? Carry them hard. That CNJ who refuses to cast Cure spells? Carry them... er, well, okay, that one might be tough.

It only becomes an issue when it comes to harder stuff, like raids or Ex primals - and for that stuff, it's already blatantly obvious that you should be forming your own parties. A few folks will be lucky enough to blunder into a group solid enough (and tolerant enough) to carry them, but most will realize that they either need to step up their game or if they won't (or can't) that some content is just too advanced for them.

^ Stumbling through this thread, this post makes the most sense. If everyone had an attitude similar to this we'd be a closer-knit community.

[Aylis]

The game doesn't push players to require those in basic dungeon play.

This is really all the monster SE created. By designing the vast majority of content to be cruise control, it eventually leads to players in having low self expectations when it comes to performing at least semi par. It doesn't help either with SE in a hurry it seems to nerf their own content. Either with ECHO or taking out certain elements. Remember AK? Granted I'm not the best player in the patch but even I found the nerfs to Demon Wall largely questionable. Steps of Fate? Nerfed because it didn't meet the cruise control standard of the game. I forget the dungeon's name but the one with the Siren boss? Players got it in daily roulette and promptly left because again, it wasn't cruise control standards. So it got nerfed. Everything else? Here have the ECHO buff. Nidhogg will no doubt see the same fate eventually as will all future content that isn't deemed cruise control worthy.