FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Will Red Mage be just like astrologian? A fusion between SMN & Blm.

[Duelle]

If RDM could pull off everything (not just the 25m raid-apt components, but everything) that Rets and Enhance could historically do, I'd be pretty okay with that. But XIV being as it's been, without some change in mentality, I doubt we'll be seeing any off-healing (which still hit for a ton in WoD), DPS-taunts, focused suppression, etc. And that would be really disappointing, imo, to leave those less role-locked parts of RDM behind. I'd rather RDM being itself be the excuse to experiment with an otherwise stale mold.

Well, we do have to keep the 18-ability limit for abilities gained through leveling. Also the fact that every melee needs to have combos (as opposed to Rets which had only Crusader Strike/Divine Storm/Exorcism and Shaman with Lava Lash/Stormstrike/Maelstrom Weapon procs).

Off-heals are a given on RDM; it is, after all, the original hybrid of the FF series and there's ways to implement heals into the job without making it overpowered. Make the heals inconvenient to cast and present risk to the RDM and you'd force them to make a decision. If you tie it to a proc (see my suggestion in my sig), even better because then you're including the choice between dealing magic damage or using the proc to heal someone.

Buffs are limited, partly because SE decided to blend stat buffs into party bonuses (because they want to encourage party diversity). Otherwise I could also see RDMs having stuff along the lines of old school Blessing of Might or Strength of Earth totem. Granted, in the current game it'd make RDM required unless you gave other jobs the ability to provide those stat buffs as well. On the other hand, I wouldn't want RDM to be there only because of buffs or some other gimmick like it was in FFXI.

If you're thinking of stuff like Seal of Light/Judgment of Light (which healed party members that attacked the mob with the debuff), the old blessings (Protection, Sacrifice, Sanctuary) or even really crazy stuff like Divine Intervention, I'll admit that's going a bit too far.

[Shurrikhan]

Well, we do have to keep the 18-ability limit for abilities gained through leveling. Also the fact that every melee needs to have combos (as opposed to Rets which had only Crusader Strike/Divine Storm/Exorcism and Shaman with Lava Lash/Stormstrike/Maelstrom Weapon procs).

Off-heals are a given on RDM; it is, after all, the original hybrid of the FF series and there's ways to implement heals into the job without making it overpowered. Make the heals inconvenient to cast and present risk to the RDM and you'd force them to make a decision. If you tie it to a proc (see my suggestion in my sig), even better because then you're including the choice between dealing magic damage or using the proc to heal someone.

If you're thinking of stuff like Seal of Light/Judgment of Light (which healed party members that attacked the mob with the debuff), the old blessings (Protection, Sacrifice, Sanctuary) or even really crazy stuff like Divine Intervention, I'll admit that's going a bit too far.

There's a lot that can be done with 18 abilities when you don't waste them on redundancies, though. I doubt that will be our real problem. That said, there's also no hard rule that every melee must have combos. It's merely precedent.

Agreed on the last bit; I wouldn't want their healing opportunities to be free--that would either be overpowered or would sap from either their dps or pseudo-tanking capabilities. Healing should be a choice, not a freebie, but it should be there, and it should be potent, sometimes even more useful than the pure damage (e.g. proc) usage. I don't necessarily think they have to be especially inconvenient, but they should come at a similar worth (taking into account the average potency of a heal vs. a similar cost attack) of dps cost.

Similarly, kind of like if Ninja was a heavy TP-burner but could Goad itself (wherein its TP-longevity is then above average instead of a bit below), I'd imagine RDM would likely use a few of its potentially 'support' tools typically on itself, though generally giving more raid dps contribution using them on a buffed ally or a party member in need (boosting that party-awareness/synergy that feels so good on classes like this), and others would share cooldowns with or just be the 'on-ally' side of normally 'on-enemy' offensive abilities. All a matter of choice, so that no particular capacity suffers. Its general output should only be so far behind pure-DPS classes as to compensate for the typical raid dps bonuses that it would then gain by using its personal 'support' moves on others.

Separately though, I'd just hope that they'd have the potential potency to heal an expert roulette or whatnot, if they so desired (albeit with rather different dynamics from your typical Cleric Stance-ing healer), and quite likely tank those decently as well (I mean, I can do that much just fine on a Dragoon or Monk already, so a hybrid who could sacrifice dps for additional enmity and mitigation certainly ought to be thus able). It's for reasons like that though that I'd really like to see some manner of role-specific Proving Grounds / SSS, etc., in XIV, rather than just dummy-killing for every role. Upon passing said healer/tank-check SSSs, the RDM could then queue for those roles.

[Duelle]

There's a lot that can be done with 18 abilities when you don't waste them on redundancies, though. I doubt that will be our real problem. That said, there's also no hard rule that every melee must have combos. It's merely precedent.

Thing is that without some sort of melee/combo system, you create the problem that ruined ret in Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria: people who NEVER used the utility skills complaining that they're not pushing enough buttons to deal damage. I'm all for a simple melee system as long as it has gaps for the utility to actually be used, but I fear history would repeat itself.

Agreed on the last bit; I wouldn't want their healing opportunities to be free--that would either be overpowered or would sap from either their dps or pseudo-tanking capabilities. Healing should be a choice, not a freebie, but it should be there, and it should be potent, sometimes even more useful than the pure damage (e.g. proc) usage. I don't necessarily think they have to be especially inconvenient, but they should come at a similar worth (taking into account the average potency of a heal vs. a similar cost attack) of dps cost.

If the off-heals are convenient to use, they become something lazy groups (specially with how people tend to play healers here)/min-maxers will count on. Having played a ret, my off-heals from Art of War procs were nice in clutch situations but I was never expected to devote non-Exorcism procs on heals. It was just something that was an option to me if I was still waiting on Exo's cooldown and the situation called for it. The fact that it was an option yet not expected of me at all was part of why I loved how WotLK's ret played; it meant I could focus on my role (DPS) without worrying about my utility hindering it.

I'd imagine RDM would likely use a few of its potentially 'support' tools typically on itself, though generally giving more raid dps contribution using them on a buffed ally or a party member in need (boosting that party-awareness/synergy that feels so good on classes like this), and others would share cooldowns with or just be the 'on-ally' side of normally 'on-enemy' offensive abilities.

I'd rather go the road of full group buffs (a la Battle Litany) or something the RDM would also directly benefit from (see: Enfeeble in my suggestion). Saving someone from a high damage attack (Phalanx) would make sense, but I'm hesitant to go beyond that.

All a matter of choice, so that no particular capacity suffers. Its general output should only be so far behind pure-DPS classes as to compensate for the typical raid dps bonuses that it would then gain by using its personal 'support' moves on others.

That still leaves the question of how much that difference would be. I'd be okay with it being equal to NIN in terms of damage, but I'm not going to cosign kicking RDM down the pit MCH and BRD have been thrown into.

[Shurrikhan]

Then why bother leveling anything else up?

You leveled more than just a tank and arcanist, it would seem. Heck, if Titan egi were stronger and DF-role-permissible, would that mean that every player would just level Arcanist and call it a day?

Thing is that without some sort of melee/combo system, you create the problem that ruined ret in Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria: people who NEVER used the utility skills complaining that they're not pushing enough buttons to deal damage. I'm all for a simple melee system as long as it has gaps for the utility to actually be used, but I fear history would repeat itself.

But, they have the same number of buttons in Legion and Warlords as they did then... The only real change that's occurred since Wrath were WoG and the shift to a (basically) Arms 6s window playstyle in Legion, with less downtime but fewer button-choices. ...though if they weren't filling empty GCDs with utility that comes basically free to Ret, well then... that's like people saying NIN is dull because they don't know how to use Trick Attack... Moreover, combos don't add choice. Splits/junctions, where you finally have REAL access to those abilities, do. The rest is prep-GCDs. If mere button-presses were all would take to satisfy those players, bully for them -- they can take their spammed abilities, duplicate them twice under new icons, and now on each triple use they could press 1, then 2, then 3. Done. They now have combos, effectively.

If the off-heals are convenient to use, they become something lazy groups (specially with how people tend to play healers here)/min-maxers will count on. Having played a ret, my off-heals from Art of War procs were nice in clutch situations but I was never expected to devote non-Exorcism procs on heals. It was just something that was an option to me if I was still waiting on Exo's cooldown and the situation called for it. The fact that it was an option yet not expected of me at all was part of why I loved how WotLK's ret played; it meant I could focus on my role (DPS) without worrying about my utility hindering it.

At the same time though, those heals for were actually free for you as filler GCDs when AAs hadn't yet procced Exo's reset and nothing else was up. Imagine if Word of Glory were your only heal choice instead, conflicting with TV/FV dps. That's still convenient, but its costly, too. Or if you never had filler/wait GCDs. Convenience being merely a correlative concern, that's still a dps loss... (Personally, doing WoD challenge dungeons I found AoW FoLs damn near relied on. Not to mention BoF, etc... So I'm not actually sure it's the best example.)

I'd rather go the road of full group buffs (a la Battle Litany) or something the RDM would also directly benefit from (see: Enfeeble in my suggestion). Saving someone from a high damage attack (Phalanx) would make sense, but I'm hesitant to go beyond that.

I just think that would be a depressingly stale way to go about things. At that point you might as well be no more than a +2% stat bonus at all times for being present in the party. Where that bonus can be diminished by unsynced CDs... But, I'm just of the opinion that CDs used on CD, with no other considerations being worthwhile, are more passive than they are abilities.

That still leaves the question of how much that difference would be. I'd be okay with it being equal to NIN in terms of damage, but I'm not going to cosign kicking RDM down the pit MCH and BRD have been thrown into.

NIN-level DPS but sub-NIN raid dps contribution (unless all its transferred/support buffs end up being each available at the perfect times for party synergy) or similar raid dps&healing/mitigation contribution is how I've always imagined RDM. Any further utility/support should detract from its dps, but it shouldn't have to pay any more than that just because it is equipped with the *option* to support/heal/pseudo-tank.
(Honestly I don't think MCH and BRD should have been thrown into so deep the well, either. The penalties on the support moves themselves should have been mostly enough; as they're not going to be automatically taken more than once per party, I don't see the harm in them dealing more equal dps. Though, honestly their combined value is really quite high, especially situationally, so I don't exactly feel sorry for any good MCH/BRD, either. Just, by principle, I don't think the dummy-dps gap should have been quite as large as it is... Though, again, as always, the deciding factor to me is the attractiveness of the job compared to its alternatives, not necessarily any one part of it.)

[Duelle]

But, they have the same number of buttons in Legion and Warlords as they did then... The only real change that's occurred since Wrath were WoG and the shift to a (basically) Arms 6s window playstyle in Legion, with less downtime but fewer button-choices. ...though if they weren't filling empty GCDs with utility that comes basically free to Ret, well then... that's like people saying NIN is dull because they don't know how to use Trick Attack...

That's not how it went. Ret went from a First-Come-First-Serve rotation with gaps for utility to a copy of rogue gameplay between Holy Power v1 and the finishers (Word of Glory, Templar's Verdict and Inquisition).

Moreover, combos don't add choice.

I'm aware that they don't. What I'm talking about is an attempt to at least keep players busy enough gameplay-wise that asinine arguments like "I'm not pushing enough buttons to deal this much DPS" never come up. It's purely a psychology thing.

At the same time though, those heals for were actually free for you as filler GCDs when AAs hadn't yet procced Exo's reset and nothing else was up.

Flash of Light was never free. The whole point of the Art of War mechanic was that it made those FoL's instant so that you only spend one GCD doing off-heals without wasting any time. To mirror this on RDM, you'd need to make Cure or whatever RDM-native heal waste enough time that you're encouraged to analyze each situation and then decide whether you should use your proc on a damage spell (equally inconvenient to cast outside of procs for the sake of balance) or a heal. You could even add a bonus to such a mechanic that spells cast that consume the proc would not interrupt combos to further encourage the RDM to weave those spells in.

[Shurrikhan]

That's not how it went. Ret went from a First-Come-First-Serve rotation with gaps for utility to a copy of rogue gameplay between Holy Power v1 and the finishers (Word of Glory, Templar's Verdict and Inquisition).

You say "rogue gameplay", but rogue has no cooldowns on its spammable skills (hence they're being spammable), unlike CS, DS, Exo, etc. I know; I've played both, every spec, every expansion (didn't hit 50 in time in Vanilla, though). My only point was that raiding as Ret didn't feel substantially different going from BC to Wrath to Cata to especially WoD. Holy Power was quite a change on paper, but far from making the class handle especially differently. It certainly didn't make it feel like spam-rogue (its CDs keeping it mostly just as whack-a-mole FCFS as ever). The Improved Seals talent has honestly felt like the largest change since, until what I've seen of Legion's revised gameplay, which just looks like 6s-window Arms.

Flash of Light was never free. The whole point of the Art of War mechanic was that it made those FoL's instant so that you only spend one GCD doing off-heals without wasting any time.

When everything else is on CD and mana is a non-issue (as it's been, iirc, since after and situationally during Wrath), it's free. You have now made something out of a GCD you would otherwise have spent waiting. It didn't consume any dps procs. It just filled otherwise wasted time. The only thing more free than that would be an oGCD. This is all irrelevant though, as I already mentioned that this isn't a model I'd build RDM on, as RDM heals should always cost (at roughly equitable value) something by way of procs or GCDs that would otherwise be spent on another role's functions (typically DPS).

To mirror this on RDM, you'd need to make Cure or whatever RDM-native heal waste enough time that you're encouraged to analyze each situation and then decide whether you should use your proc on a damage spell (equally inconvenient to cast outside of procs for the sake of balance) or a heal. You could even add a bonus to such a mechanic that spells cast that consume the proc would not interrupt combos to further encourage the RDM to weave those spells in.

Agreed. Though again, I see combos and their use in a RDM especially as merely a fetter to gameplay EXCEPT where it makes timing and/or integrated mechanics (your above Swiftcast procs, etc.) necessary. To throw out some alternatives from just choosing which is used as a mid-combo filler (especially where a combo-bridge or -finisher may carry a buff/debuff, thus causing filler GCDs to adjust your gameplay windows, or you outright have a limited number of filler GCDs available within particular (de)buff windows, giving you, say, only 2 casts per 20s), you could also have your weaponskills themselves 'build' in different directions, with some paying off at different timings more for heals vs. tanking vs. damage, such that the RDM must actually think about what he wants not just now but some 10-30 seconds in the future as well, increasing skill-gap and decreasing convenience without causing clunky gameplay.