Low level tanks (pre-tank stance) have a very hard time holding threat after the nerf

[Kabzy]

Square, reverse your DPS nerf and address this problem.

I like this part. Is this really about our low level tanks or something else? ;D

[ccrocker58]

Aoe threat builders are meant to be spammed. Obviously, not spammed to the absolute depletion of all TP / MP (although that isn't a big freakin deal for PLD considering Riot blade combo recovers MP), but they are meant to be spammed in the sense you cast them two or three times at the start, and continue using them after every other threat / dps combo.

I...said exactly this literally a paragraph down from the text you quoted. Selective reading I guess.

As I already mentioned, it tabs through without any consideration whatsoever to the distance the object is at. It doesn't go precisely left or right of your character, which causes delays in targeting the enemy you want.

You can press left or right on the d-pad without holding L1 on control to select the nearest enemy to your left or right. Consecutive presses will cycle from nearest to farthest. Do you even play on a control? This is pretty basic stuff...so I'm going to assume you don't, and if that is the case you should not be attempting to argue about it. If you do play on control and didn't know this stuff...lol.

As for the changes to STR and VIT, no. Just...no. There's literally nothing else I can say about this that hasn't already been said in this thread. Anyway, I'm done with this. Think whatever you want, tell people whatever you want. No matter how much logic and common sense are thrown at you, as far as you're concerned, you'll always be right.

[Janise]

I have an ilvl 207 DRK to 60.

I have started to level both GLD and MAR sincethe patch change just so I can have all tanks levelled

I have MAR/WAR on 35 atm and and a GLD on about 28 - have to say that at times it was hard to hold hate particularly in Roulette where I would be trying to hold agaisnt very well geared players synced down. But it was never an issue on other than a couple of occasions usually when Overpower didn' pick up all the mobs in a group. Since Defiance dropped I've had no problems whatsoever.

I would also add that NOT ONCE has anyone bitched or moaned that hate was lost on occasions. In fact most people are quite understanding and recognise that the disparity even in synced gear can create issues sometimes.

I should add that I'm pretty well geared so maybe its easier - but hell - I did my research and knew what I needed to be wearing to stand a decent chance of doing the job. Most people having major hate issues wil be simply undergeared or poor at understanding their mechanics IMHO

The other factor here is that actually having to work at holding aggro has made me appreciate far more the mechanics of each job. With DRK starting at 30 I didnt go through that curve so took a while to get the job down pat in the higher levels dugs. Working on getting hate back when I lose it has made me far more aware of 1) How not to lose it in the first place and 2) the best ways to get it back and hold it

Brutally honest? Seems to me that this is more a bitch thread about DPS being nerfed at higher levels than any great concern about lower levels having a hard time of it. I am levelling right now on both GLD and MAR/WAR and I have no complaints.

[Erim-Nelhah]

I decided to reroll to a new server, and have been playing GLA/PLD on my new toon. I had a handful of problems with holding hate on large pulls in Sastasha, Tam-Tara, and Copperhell, but once I was able to get ahead of the story level-wise and start overgearing the dungeons, I've had no real trouble.

--Erim Nelhah

[therpgfanatic]

I...said exactly this literally a paragraph down from the text you quoted. Selective reading I guess.

I'm not selective reading. I've been responding to your statements.

I...said exactly this literally a paragraph down from the text you quoted. Selective reading I guess.

I'm not selective reading. I've been responding to your statements.

You can press left or right on the d-pad without holding L1 on control to select the nearest enemy to your left or right. Consecutive presses will cycle from nearest to farthest. Do you even play on a control? This is pretty basic stuff...so I'm going to assume you don't, and if that is the case you should not be attempting to argue about it. If you do play on control and didn't know this stuff...lol.

I play on a PS3. So yes, I use a controller. I'm very familiar with how it works. It doesn't focus on just enemies, either. It focuses on any clickable object within your characters field of view, which can actually be at the other end of a room or behind a wall depending on where your character is sitting and how the pathways in the dungeon are setup.

This will get you more enmity in the long run, and spread out damage. Obviously, this is all situational. If your DPS is all focusing on one enemy, you should be focusing on that enemy. If you have 7-8 mobs and everyone is (rightfully) going AOE crazy, spam flash/unleash/etc. Part of tanking is knowing what the best tool for the situation is. Sometimes, that will be AOE enmity moves, other times that will be tab targeting, and still other times you can just focus on a single enemy.

I believe tanking trash should be the same tactic, regardless of the makeup of the party. All damage dealing classes have access to something that can contribute to AoE damage, whether it's a DoT or a true AoE attack. If the player is good and understands their class, they will use those skills to take down the group rather than focus on an enemy 1 by 1. For example, it is always better for a Lancer to tag a group of trash with Phlebotomize before focusing on the tank's target with a DPS combo, as it can wittle about 15% of an enemy's HP off, which adds to the AoE damage an Archer, THAU or ARCA is doing (as well as the AoE that a DRK or MARD is doing). Runs go significantly faster if DPS adopt tactics better suited for taking down a group of trash and the tank should make it as easy as possible for DPS to use these tactics by using their AoE threat builder, even if it's just Flash.

(The only exception to this may be enemies that can wipe the tank, like grenades that explode, or bees with final sting, which should be prioritized above all else)

Yet, I also know that most damage dealing players suck. I've literally shown another DRG why they should pop Blood for Blood and spam Doom Spike on trash in Aurum Vale rather than do their single-target combo, and they still choose to do the much slower way of clearing trash. It seems a lot of players doesn't understand TP recovers very fast outside of battle and the encounters are usually designed to give enough time to fully recover TP between packs of trash, so depleting TP, popping Invigorate and then AoEing to 20% of your TP pool and then finishing off the leftovers with single target DPS combos is the way to go.

Regardless, if a tank builds the threat on an entire pack quickly and maintains it, DPS players who are good can clear the trash quickly and the run can go very fast and painless.

Anyway, to get back to my original point in the OP I made; I have seen low level tanks do everything correctly and still lose threat. That's an issue, and I think the biggest problem is the DPS nerfs all tanks took, and that has to do with the recent damage change that split AP between VIT and STR, which has created a loss of DPS for all tanks, even low level ones, for all the reasons outlined in the post I made before.

[Deathgiver]

It doesn't focus on just enemies, either. It focuses on any clickable object within your characters field of view, which can actually be at the other end of a room or behind a wall depending on where your character is sitting and how the pathways in the dungeon are setup.

You should fix your target settings then, literally the only way I target an object instead of an enemy is if I use X to target instead of the d-pad. Even this can be worked around pretty easily if you move your camera so the thing you don't want to target is not in view.

[Kabooa]

Anyway, to get back to my original point in the OP I made; I have seen low level tanks do everything correctly and still lose threat. That's an issue, and I think the biggest problem is the DPS nerfs all tanks took.

Happened before 3.2 buddy. The issue wasn't losing 3dps in Satasha, the issue is that low level tanking in general is very difficult.

Fact of the matter is that you don't get training wheels for tanking in this game, for whatever reason, and holding everything is not only difficult, it's a crapshoot. At the same time, every dungeon before Stone Vigil (the point where Paladins finally get their tank stance), losing a trash mob doesn't kill your DPS. If anything, a DPS can tank a mob or two without stressing the healer much at all.

Yes, it's annoying.

No, it's hardly an issue.

[DarthVella]

Look, I understand where you are coming from, I really do. It's next to impossible for a lowbie to hold hate against a DPS who's doing their job right, and that's disheartening for the tank and irritating for their party.

But it's not a new issue, and I think it hasn't been addressed because it's good training for the tank. It's an indication that maybe they're going about things the wrong way, and incentive for the party to offer tips. It's a good way to learn how much enmity is enough to keep ahead in later dungeons, and an easy tutor on not panicking when you do lose hate. It can use some fine-tuning, but it works well enough that it doesn't quite need it.

For that matter, expecting low-level tanks to spam AoEs for the sake of a fast clear is a terrible idea, because it teaches bad habits. I was told to use the Flash -> Riot combo during my first Satasha tank run; and while that got me through that dungeon, it was patently not enough to hold hate ten levels down the line and I was lambasted for not knowing about Halone.

[Zari]

Considering this has ALWAYS been a thing, NOT only after 3.2
This feels more like you trying to make excuses for why you think the dps nerf should be reversed just so you can be a dumb dps "tank" again

[therpgfanatic]

Considering this has ALWAYS been a thing, NOT only after 3.2
This feels more like you trying to make excuses for why you think the dps nerf should be reversed just so you can be a dumb dps "tank" again

Hypothetically, if you are correct and it's always been a problem with low level tanks holding threat, you are then admitting there is a problem with low level tanks ability to hold threat.

But here's the reality:

Before Patch:

4 STR = 4 AP

After Patch:


4 STR = 1.76 AP

2 STR + 2 VIT = 1.76 AP

4 VIT = 1.76 AP

Damage is a core part of threat generation, and low level tanks have all just lost a significant chunk of their damage output with the nerf. Even with a slight buff to enmity modifiers on 1 or 2 skills, that truth doesn't change.

What part of this is hard to understand?