Hardcore crafters, SE has rewarded you big-time in this patch.

[MN_14]

Emphasis on the phrase "hardcore crafters." But the problem with 3.x crafting was never a hardcore crafting problem. If anything, the specialist system and crazy-high crafts/control requirements have made everything more lucrative for them since 3.05 because no one else in their right mind was bothering.

Where's the beef for those of us who don't have our own FC ships to farm oodles of materia IVs so that we have a chance to hit the 3* requirements? I don't have the gil to be paying 400k per Control IV materia, and I don't have the time to be endlessly farming Diadem.

The entire system seems to be catered to more casual crafters who cap their scrips each week and then exchange for the i180 red scrip gear. This allows them to meet the 3* requirements without all of those super expensive melds while anyone who wants to catch up using i170 gear or quickly gear all eight classes has to pay a very expensive price. Making tens of millions of gil from crafting has never been easier as long as you keep up with your scrips. However, if you don't keep up, it'll cost tens of millions of gil per class you want to catch up on.

Take a look at the requirements for the recipes and the difficulty of the crafts in general. The master recipe books are basically freebies requiring 8-10 leveling crafts (collectibles) for you to turn in. 3* crafts also use readily available materials and are a complete breeze in terms of challenge. Capped CP, for example, helps when it comes to crafting recipes from all NQ materials, but anyone who isn't as well geared simply can use more HQ materials. I've done a few tests and at 2000 starting quality, a byregot's blessing buffed with GS and Innovation gives me around 85% at a mere 9 stacks of IQ.

Once you're CP capped, it's a waste of time to HQ any of the 3* mats or even the non-star mats generally. With my stats, 11 stacks of IQ gives me around 86% (byregot's buffed with GS only), so I need at least an additional touch on top of that to craft from 0-100%. I've completed over 100 final crafts mostly from all NQ materials and have noticed that I get 100% the majority of the time and that I'll get 11 stacks of IQ 6/7 times for 86%+. For the 1/7 times when my IQ stacks fall below 11, it's usually 10 stacks of IQ, which is enough for 65%+. In those cases, I usually just reclaim for a 90% chance of getting my materials back.

There's absolutely no need to HQ any of the intermediate materials unless you have extra time and want to HQ a few non-star mats to guarantee 100% at 11 stacks of IQ (this, however, only applies if you're not using innovation or ingenuity 2).

[Kabooa]

I would really love to see high skill crafting become a part of future gating. I would also like to see something like the Lucis system where materials can be obtained with little Gil.

I read this as "I really want all max level craft classes to wait for a few people on the forums to sim and show the optimal 100% HQ stat and rotation set up."

Acting as if previous crafting tiers were 'hard' is silly. It was a numbers game, with a few people pioneering and the rest following.

[Jade-Nephrite]

I remember the days of gathering Dzamel Tomatoes & Volcanic Rock Salt for CUL / ALC Turn-ins for the Artisan Spectacles... just to desynth them! ah! I didn't spend any gil on my MasterCraft / FC3's back in the day. Now LTW can make them in little time, I've even used my desynthed Spruce Lumber for the turn-ins for the Artisan Saw... to desynth it too!

True if you want to catch up quickly you need to spend gil... it was always like that, but if you do 9 Tokens worth of Favors you can get 27x 2* mats per week. They called me foolish to gear-up all 8 classes, but now it's all profit

[giantslayer]

I read this as "I really want all max level craft classes to wait for a few people on the forums to sim and show the optimal 100% HQ stat and rotation set up."

Acting as if previous crafting tiers were 'hard' is silly. It was a numbers game, with a few people pioneering and the rest following.

Those crafts were legitimately more difficult than other normal items of the same level. I was one of the people who figured it out on my own and didn't have a lot of problems (which is why I can say I liked it), but a lot of people did have trouble on them. Yes, people learned from the forums, but it was hard to teach because it wasn't a set rotation, but something that adapted as the craft progressed. Those who didn't understand the why behind the methods had more difficulty than those who did.

I still stand by my point that I would rather have a crafting grind than a gathering grind, and that the difficulty shouldn't be a joke like crafting collectibles is currently.

[Alahra]

Pricing on Diabolos has been really strange so far. A number of crafters tanked prices on finished i220 pieces in the first few days below the cost of mats, and the market hasn't really stabilized yet as a result.

It's slowly getting there, but demand isn't as high as I would have expected it to be. Profit margins were, strangely, much better for the i185 Sky Pirate's gear when it was introduced than the margins are for the i220 gear presently.

[MN_14]

Those crafts were legitimately more difficult than other normal items of the same level. I was one of the people who figured it out on my own and didn't have a lot of problems (which is why I can say I liked it), but a lot of people did have trouble on them. Yes, people learned from the forums, but it was hard to teach because it wasn't a set rotation, but something that adapted as the craft progressed. Those who didn't understand the why behind the methods had more difficulty than those who did.

I still stand by my point that I would rather have a crafting grind than a gathering grind, and that the difficulty shouldn't be a joke like crafting collectibles is currently.

Agreed. In ARR, there were two sets of crafters. One used a dynamic approach (required for the master book 2 tokens unless you bought the common myth that you had to get lucky when it came to building 11 stacks of IQ and were forced to reclaim the vast majority of the time) and the other typically either used a semi-static rotation, replacing HT with BT if CP permitted, or a crafting macro like Mithrie's. I've always found the popularity of the ARR 4* crafting macros to be ironic since it was far more variable and dependent on luck than even the current specialist abilities, provided that you have SH2 and the level 15 cross class abilities.

From what I saw online, the dynamic non-static approach was poorly documented with some hints finally popping up near the HW launch, so most users of that strategy likely had to come up with it on their own.

This approach, imo, is still the best method for building IQ stacks. With a large pool of base CP and new abilities like Maker's mark and precise touch, building 11 stacks of IQ is doable even for most crafts in which you miss 4-5 times.

[Sollux]

I miss the skill-based gating from 2.x. Artisan tools required 50 difficult HQ turn-ins (although 50 was a bit much to be honest), Master II book required 3 super-hard turn-ins. Lucis required a bunch of also difficult turn-ins, and you got the materials from leve quests so it wasn't expensive. By contrast, the new master books are a joke to obtain. Red scrips require no skill.

I would really love to see high skill crafting become a part of future gating. I would also like to see something like the Lucis system where materials can be obtained with little Gil.

2.X gating was more luck-based than anything, ESPECIALLY the Master Book II. Even with the previous Endgame gear overmelded, a good rotation, and HQ materials for everything that you COULD HQ (Due to FC3 only being NQ) you STILL had to rely on at least a Good for Byregot's, otherwise you had a 30% chance to HQ AT MOST.

It's difficult to gate something based on Crafting skill rather than luck specifically because if an item can be taken to 100% Quality with the current gear there will always be someone posting minimum stats and a rotation to do so (I'll admit, I've done this myself through pure curiosity). Players with skill will have the upper hand until this happens, but it's usually short lived unless the gear needed is also gated by something else like time/material scarcity like the current i180/i170 gear is.

I do agree that the Lucis system was done well. To be honest, I returned to the game late and never bothered to get them, but I do like the idea of a system based around more than just gil and would like to see the return of such a system.

Back to my original post, SE didn't nerf the gear progression in the least bit, which rewards those who stuck it out through 3.1 by preventing others from entering the 3-star market until a later patch.

While you're correct in that they didn't increase the weekly cap or reduce the number of tokens needed for a gear piece they DID nerf overall gear progression quite a bit. I assume you're referring to the i180 gear, but I'm also going to reference changes that benefited Crafting i170 gear as it's also a part of the gear progression.

3.0 Buffs

1. The turn-ins for Red Scrips used to give much less, the amount of Scrips received was buffed in the beginning of August.

Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3214352

Favors were buffed in 3.07

2. Favors were changed from 15 minutes down to 5 minutes and the chance for an item to pop increased by 300%. Even if you didn't Gather the mats yourself the fact that Favor mats were MUCH easier to farm made them a more enticing option for Gatherers to spend their Scrips on, increasing the overall flow of materials into the market. I farmed Favors myself (And I hate Gathering more than you can possibly know) both before and after the change and my average went from 0-2 every 15 minutes to 3-5 every 5 minutes.

Source: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...7aff5b99d9fb32

3.1 Brought a number of nerfs, both direct and indirect.

3. The amount of 2* mats you received per Favor item turn-in was tripled. This literally cut the amount of time (And in a lot of cases gil) that it took to Craft i170 gear to 1/3rd of what it was before.

4. Favors now guarantee at least 1 item per Favor where before you had a chance to receive none at all.

5. 2* mats were available through Law Tomes (Though they aren't anymore), and while it wasn't much (1 item for 1800 tomes) it still served to increase the flow of mats into the market.

6. Favor mats were (And still are) available through Diadem turn-ins. I doubt anyone uses their spoils on them now, but for a time there was another influx of mats on the market.

Source: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...c91d884c6b6a84

And while I can't say exactly when it happened, there are more options for Red Scrip turn-ins now than before. Initially the only Red Scrip turn-in required you to have the Master book from Blue Scrips where now we're given options from the basic recipe book.

While it stinks for those on the outside, those on the inside spent an unfathomable amount of time and Gil to get there with basically no reward or payout, and it is not fair to them to wipe it all out with an immediate nerf. For those who are frustrated, they will eventually nerf it and 220 gear will have a long shelf life.

As a long time Crafter, and one who completed all i170 sets a month before 3.1 (Through no small amount of blood, sweat, and tears), I appreciate this comment and can say that it's more true than most could possibly know. I can relate to those who are working to catch up now and are frustrated with the daunting amount of time/gil needed to reach 3* levels, but at the same time it's the exact same amount of work (Although nerfed) that I put into my gear 6 months ago with no immediate return (Save Relic items that came over a month later) until this most recent patch. I can relate, yes, but I have little sympathy for those who had the ability to gear up but chose not to.

[Hanmerreborn]

The entire system seems to be catered to more casual crafters who cap their scrips each week and then exchange for the i180 red scrip gear. This allows them to meet the 3* requirements without all of those super expensive melds while anyone who wants to catch up using i170 gear or quickly gear all eight classes has to pay a very expensive price. Making tens of millions of gil from crafting has never been easier as long as you keep up with your scrips. However, if you don't keep up, it'll cost tens of millions of gil per class you want to catch up on.

Take a look at the requirements for the recipes and the difficulty of the crafts in general. The master recipe books are basically freebies requiring 8-10 leveling crafts (collectibles) for you to turn in. 3* crafts also use readily available materials and are a complete breeze in terms of challenge. Capped CP, for example, helps when it comes to crafting recipes from all NQ materials, but anyone who isn't as well geared simply can use more HQ materials. I've done a few tests and at 2000 starting quality, a byregot's blessing buffed with GS and Innovation gives me around 85% at a mere 9 stacks of IQ.

Once you're CP capped, it's a waste of time to HQ any of the 3* mats or even the non-star mats generally. With my stats, 11 stacks of IQ gives me around 86% (byregot's buffed with GS only), so I need at least an additional touch on top of that to craft from 0-100%. I've completed over 100 final crafts mostly from all NQ materials and have noticed that I get 100% the majority of the time and that I'll get 11 stacks of IQ 6/7 times for 86%+. For the 1/7 times when my IQ stacks fall below 11, it's usually 10 stacks of IQ, which is enough for 65%+. In those cases, I usually just reclaim for a 90% chance of getting my materials back.

There's absolutely no need to HQ any of the intermediate materials unless you have extra time and want to HQ a few non-star mats to guarantee 100% at 11 stacks of IQ (this, however, only applies if you're not using innovation or ingenuity 2).

Except you can't hit 3* with just scrips, that has been shown already.

Furthermore, the "you can make millions" is a circular argument. All prices are due to supply/cost & demand. Right now, the material supply is a joke (small amounts of esoterics and relatively easy to gather nodes). Demand is high, but the overall cost is still HUGE due to the giant massive gate that not only 2* (through scrips and favor gathering) was, but also the giant materia gil sink and time sinks are why people are putting them up for millions in the first place.

If I could make 3 star it would cost me barely anything to make the items. But my 4 airships sent every day to sector 17 have yet to return control materia since 3.2 hit, and rank 4 is running for nearly a million a piece, so I'm effectively locked out.

Its interesting about the control materia costs. If I was able to 3* craft on day one like some people, I would buy all the materia and set it at an absurd amount like that. It locks the opposition out of the crafting game completely.

[MN_14]

Except you can't hit 3* with just scrips, that has been shown already.

Furthermore, the "you can make millions" is a circular argument. All prices are due to supply/cost & demand. Right now, the material supply is a joke (small amounts of esoterics and relatively easy to gather nodes). Demand is high, but the overall cost is still HUGE due to the giant massive gate that not only 2* (through scrips and favor gathering) was, but also the giant materia gil sink and time sinks are why people are putting them up for millions in the first place.

AFAIK, you can reach the minimum 3* requirements with i180 scrip gear for the main pieces and non-star crafting gear for some of the other pieces. This setup would require minimal melds and little to no grade 4 over-melds. Most of the grade 4 materia that you'll need can be earned through the crafting quests.

This is going to be server dependent (control iv has been a stable 200-300k on my server for months; strangely enough they were also 200k during ARR....), but from what I've seen, the cost of these melds will be made back from the sale of only a few pieces of gear. Keep at it for a couple of weeks and you'll earn 10-20x your initial investment. However, if you did what I did and used 100 million gil worth of melds on i170 gear, you'll be hard pressed to earn all of it back in a timely manner (sales are slow on Coeurl and it doesn't matter much whether the item is priced at 800k or 2 million gil).

Capping red crafter scrips each week is a trivial thing to do because even when quick synthing all of the intermediate materials, it takes around 30 min. The gil required for the base materials can be easily earned by selling a few non-star crafted items each week.

[MN_14]

2.X gating was more luck-based than anything, ESPECIALLY the Master Book II. Even with the previous Endgame gear overmelded, a good rotation, and HQ materials for everything that you COULD HQ (Due to FC3 only being NQ) you STILL had to rely on at least a Good for Byregot's, otherwise you had a 30% chance to HQ AT MOST.

That actually wasn't entirely true. Although luck was involved somewhat, there were a lot of things that many crafters did not do that could boost their chances of building 11 stacks of IQ and maximize quality. One of the main problems was that many stuck to a static/semi-static rotation comprising of only 10-11 HT attempts, while only using excess CP to replace HTs with BTs.

At least 50% of the the time, you should have been able to use master's mend 2 twice, allowing for 13 HT attempts and giving you an average IQ stack of 11. From there, you'd normally get ~30-35% if you landed a byregot's blessing buffed with GS and innovation on normal and 86%+ if you landed on a good. With a couple of baiting steps (innovation + cs2), you had a fair chance of landing it on a good proc.

One interesting thing was that the difference between 30% and 65% was a mere 400 quality. Particularly if you managed to use mm2 twice, there would also be times in which you landed a HT on an excellent or landed an additional touch aside from the 10 required for 11 IQ. With one extra successful touch, you got 60%+ even when landing byregot's on normal. If one of those 11 successful touches happened to be during an excellent proc, you could get 85%+. Getting 60%+ without byregot's on a good proc isn't something that happened each time, but it happened often enough for me to know that it wasn't a mere one-off.