"Dark Knight: Tanking On The Edge"

[Aaliyahrose]

snip.

Yes...all of this...Ever since the DRK first came out and practiced with mana and its abilities, they are just dodge everything. You can even pop sprint to pull a big mob, AND NOT USE A SINGLE TP SKILL to keep aggro. All of this at the same time, you can keep your mana above 15% ILY DRK! Most edgy tank.

[Tiops]

What changes now from this guide on 3.2? Should I stay with Grit on all the time now when MT'ing? Even with trash pulls in dungeons? I'm going to start working on my DRK again today (it's level 50 at the moment), and it would be great to not suck in the duties :P.

[Jhett_Magnum]

Might be a dumb question, but does foe's requiem enhance Abyssal Drain, Dark Passenger, and Unleash?

[Syzygian]

What changes now from this guide on 3.2? Should I stay with Grit on all the time now when MT'ing? Even with trash pulls in dungeons? I'm going to start working on my DRK again today (it's level 50 at the moment), and it would be great to not suck in the duties :P.

Keep it on until you're comfortable, pay attention to when you're taking a bunch of damage and when you're not. Be advised that it is much harder to build hate out of Grit now, so keep it on until you have a significant lead.

Might be a dumb question, but does foe's requiem enhance Abyssal Drain, Dark Passenger, and Unleash?

It does, as does Bishop Hypercharge. Unmend is enhanced as well.

These abilities only care about what kind of damage the target takes from your attack, not which of your stats that damage scales from.

[Syzygian]

Patch 3.2: Assessing The Damage

A lot of stuff happened in Patch 3.2 and it definitely has a large effect on the writings of this guide.

This guide was formulated in a time where DPS tanking was at its all-time high. I myself personally am a more defensive-minded tank, but more than defensive or offensive tanks must adapt and that is what a lot of us did, we adapted.

Now that playstyle has been turned *almost* completely on its head.

The number one change?

Attack Power before scaled at a 1:1 ratio with the STR stat.
Attack Power now scales at a 0.45:1 ratio with both STR *and* VIT.

The number two change?

Enmity modifiers of tank stances were boosted from 2.3x to 2.7x.

This did a number of things which I will list neatly here for the record.

1. Tank DPS was nerfed. We now do out of tank stance about the same damage that we were doing in tank stance pre-3.2. A roughly 20% loss across the board from STR gear, but about a 5-10% increase from fending gear.

2. As a direct result of this, every tank's self-healing capability also suffered by the same margin. Again, full VIT tanks from pre-3.2 are likely seeing this as a buff.

3. HP pools are significantly larger now. At the time of this writing DRKs with 22K HP are cropping up as new i220+ gear is being gathered.

4. While DPS suffered, the boost to tank stance enmity almost perfectly matches this (2.3*1.2 (20%) = just above 2.7). Keeping aggro in tank stance is mostly unaffected, and may actually be easier, again, for tanks that were employing VIT builds prior.

5. However, with tank DPS so much lower now in proportion to actual DPS jobs (on average a difference of about 400 DPS assuming equal gear/skill) we can no longer count on our DPS-stance output to maintain enmity against DPS (or healers, for that matter). A significant lead in enmity must be built first and then maintenanced throughout an encounter.

6. Following the above, stance dancing has become a more evenhanded and conservative affair. Fights are taking full advantage of our large HP pools now and dishing out fitting amounts of damage. So before jumping into DPS stance as a tank, you must now not only assess incoming damage, but also your party's enmity. Gone are the days of dropping tank stance indefinitely save only for your opener and/or tank busters.

What does this mean for DRK?

1. MP is not as easy to manage while MTing. You can't just drop Grit any time you want Blood Weapon. So you must now more than ever make the most of Blood Price and attempt to rotate it in such a way as to get the most MP out of it.

2. A single Power Slash at the start of the fight is not enough. You'll probably now want to open with two, and throw 1 out at the start of each new phase of a fight, as a rule of thumb (healers gain a LOT of hate on you in those add phases and other similar interruptions).

3. Souleater heals can be meaningful now. While they're gonna be considerably smaller, you'll see more of them just by virtue of being in Grit more.

So... enjoy your big HP pool, learn to play nice with Grit, watch your hate, find windows for stance dancing, and remember that you are much more dependent on your tank stance now because at ~DPS lower than bonafide DPS jobs now your damage alone will not carry your aggro for extended periods.

When accuracy caps are known, I'll be posting a couple of BiS lists here for progression and farm builds, etc.

(-will be quoting this and inserting into the main guide-)

[Violette]

Just a few more things, from Savage/Accuracy/BIS/DRK viability point of view that Syzy may have missed (though I agree with everything he has posted).

Savage/Accuracy:
Stance Dancing: As Szyz said, due to the amount of stance dancing DRK'S especially now have to be careful. There are multiple tank busting mechanics in A5S and A6S (cannot talk for A7S/A8S but I know both of them have them in Normal so we'll see them in Savage in a more savage form. Because of this, swapping out of tank stance right after a tank swap isn't always going to be the thing to do. However, there are situations/phases of each fight where the main tank at the time can drop tank stance safely.

Accuracy:Accuracy this patch is not a problem, especially given we want to avoid parry like the plague for other more reliable stats (see parry = awful in most other threads. With this in mind, looking at the 240 accessories we can see that all parry pieces have no accuracy, meaning unless we want parry all tank accessory lay outs look like this. As you can all see this gives us a LOT of accuracy w/o melds, which is important as the highest potency meld in accessories is str V's. Given accuracy climbed from the initial by 50 in the previous patch, tank accuracy may be as low as 700 (though I am guessing 750~ or 720 + tank stance for frontal).

Best-In-Slot:
Once again, tank best in slot is simply a case of pick the no parry pieces. This looks something like this. Unfortunately this means that if the accuracy cap is lower, we need to start taking on parry (not a bad thing). It does have a lot of SkS (so bad for paladins, but not our problem). From here, it's mainly dropping acc in favor of higher secondaries+parry and melding to accuracy. Until we have more info on the A6S cap (A5S is basically A4S), this is pure speculation of course, but the main problem of dropping acc is we take on more and more sks. Given STR is the bis in accessories, we want to take as much crit/det/acc in those and avoid sks when possible, as we can't make up for loss of Crit/Det/Acc by melding.

Viability:
A lot of teams are still using warriors (sadly), because even though warrior was possibly the hardest hit by the str changes, they still give the two storms, so we're competing with Paladins once more. Given the variety and number of tank busters (that are of both damage types), this means that DRK still has it's own niches, being sustainability, Dark Mind, bringing INT down for all those pesky magic aoes (which have returned after a lack in Gordias). However, as Paladin's dps has been bought back in line, a pld/mnk is a viable replacement of drk/nin (or maybe drk/drg, not sure). But teams are still using Dark Knights, because there are more tank swaps than ever, the damage requirements across the board have been lowered and Dark Knight still doesn't bottom out of tp quickly.

Also implied suck it. 2 PS opener ftw. Aeon was right Syzy was left.

[Syzygian]

More added to the change log. Posting some PoV DRK-specific guides here soon, possibly.

[SpookyGhost]

Hiya! Have some DRK-related questions (only 2 of 'em really):

1.) So I've just gotten my other character to 60 last week, he's only a measly i212 still with his upgraded Eso weapon, no melds on anything. I've been trying to get down the A5S dummy w/o using food or pot, but I've consistently ended up at 4-5%. Here's a video of what I do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RW-M_x-Yu0

The only changes I can think to make are saving my 3rd C&S to use under Dark Arts which consequently means saving my Dark Passenger for a little later but since BW is up it should only be an extra GCD or 2 if any at all and the other change I can make is not using the final Scourge, as I'm not sure if it's actually a potency gain or not since I don't get the full duration. Sometimes my oGCDs clip into my GCD, which could be costing me an extra GCD, but I'm not really sure on that. Other than those things I'm not sure what else I can change. Any advice would help a lot as I've racked my brain trying to sort this out, I'm also willing to accept it's not possible but it feels possible.

2.) So, my SkS feels like it's causing me a lot of issues with my oGCDs during BW especially with Plunge (if I don't do it immediately it clips). Unfortunately, instead of getting the belt week 1 I ended up getting the neck (this was due to my current gear at the time and it was the largest upgrade) and the head piece, as well as a 1/2 a hand from M4. This has put me in a situation where I have a pretty hefty amount of SkS, but not so much that it's really hindering me. However, this week I'll have to make a decision and I'd like to know what would be the best course of action.

Basically, I ran the numbers through Dervy's updated stat weights and ended up with these 2 options:

Hellfire Pants + Proto Gloves + Proto Boots:

811 STR / 558 Crit / 348 Det / 561 SkS / 1164 VIT

811 STR / 205.3 Crit / 107.5 Det / 145.3 SkS / 1164 VIT

2433.1

Hellfire Body + Proto Gloves + Proto Belt:

809 STR / 671 Crit / 477 Det / 727 SkS / 1163 VIT

809 STR / 246.9 Crit / 147.4 Det / 188.3 SkS / 1163 VIT

2554.6

The 2nd option gives me significantly higher stat weight and only costs 1 point of VIT, however it will put me at a bit of a ridiculous number for SkS. I'm not sure if these are my only 2 options or not, you can see my current gear set at the end of the A5S dummy video. I think getting the body + boots + gloves might be viable, but I'd probably need to meld accuracy so I'm not sure if that's worth it or not right now. Anyway, I'm just really confused on what route I should be taking from here and any input would help me a lot.

[Syzygian]

Hiya! Have some DRK-related questions (only 2 of 'em really):

1.) So I've just gotten my other character to 60 last week, he's only a measly i212 still with his upgraded Eso weapon, no melds on anything. I've been trying to get down the A5S dummy w/o using food or pot, but I've consistently ended up at 4-5%. Here's a video of what Ido:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RW-M_x-Yu0

The only changes I can think to make are saving my 3rd C&S to use under Dark Arts which consequently means saving my Dark Passenger for a little later but since BW is up it should only be an extra GCD or 2 if any at all and the other change I can make is not using the final Scourge, as I'm not sure if it's actually a potency gain or not since I don't get the full duration. Sometimes my oGCDs clip into my GCD, which could be costing me an extra GCD, but I'm not really sure on that. Other than those things I'm not sure what else I can change. Any advice would help a lot as I've racked my brain trying to sort this out, I'm also willing to accept it's not possible but it feels possible.

Hey Spooky

1. Clipping your oGCDs is a thing although in fairness the only time I caught you doing it was during that one DASE where you I guess hesitated and popped DA very late in your GCD.

I will say that if you must DASE instead of DE to make sure you have MP for Carve and DP this is a net gain (DASE +140 DP +150 CS +350). You're extremely zealous with your DASE which is awesome, but there's no need to dip your MP down to 7(!) to squeeze in an extra DASE if it means you're gonna not be able to DP or DACS later. Don't be afraid even, to use DE twice in a row. This can happen.

MP is potency. That's how you have to look at it. Every 884 MP you have is -at least- 140 potency. (DASE only actually costs 884 due to SyS mitigating the DA cost). In this sense, DE is a DPS investment gain.

There should be at least 1 point in your rotation where you get off a burst similar to your opener, in which you DA and reapply DE and Scourge, and then DACS+DP going into DA SE.

Kinda like DRG and Power Surge/Jump, CS and DP have even recast timers. When you pop DACS it should almost always be double-weaved with DP. This compartmentalizes your biggest one-time MP drain and frees you up to focus on DASE for the following minute.

As far as Scourge goes... Scourge is fucking powerful. A DRK's default GCD rotation is 13 GCDs long, with a cycle of DASE/DE totalling 1480 potency, and getting 2 of those every Scourge which is 500 potency totals 3460. 3460/13 is ~266 which means Scourge is a DPS gain after only half its duration. Even if you do 1 extra DASE over DE per cycle, your total is still 3580 potency which averages to ~275 potency per GCD, which Scourge still pulls ahead of at 15s.

The TLDR of it is prioritize your mana recovery over DASE in the last 15-20s or so of DACS's recast time.

2.) So, my SkS feels like it's causing me a lot of issues with my oGCDs during BW especially with Plunge (if I don't do it immediately it clips). Unfortunately, instead of getting the belt week 1 I ended up getting the neck (this was due to my current gear at the time and it was the largest upgrade) and the head piece, as well as a 1/2 a hand from M4. This has put me in a situation where I have a pretty hefty amount of SkS, but not so much that it's really hindering me. However, this week I'll have to make a decision and I'd like to know what would be the best course of action.

Basically, I ran the numbers through Dervy's updated stat weights and ended up with these 2 options:

Hellfire Pants + Proto Gloves + Proto Boots:

811 STR / 558 Crit / 348 Det / 561 SkS / 1164 VIT

811 STR / 205.3 Crit / 107.5 Det / 145.3 SkS / 1164 VIT

2433.1

Hellfire Body + Proto Gloves + Proto Belt:

809 STR / 671 Crit / 477 Det / 727 SkS / 1163 VIT

809 STR / 246.9 Crit / 147.4 Det / 188.3 SkS / 1163 VIT

2554.6

The 2nd option gives me significantly higher stat weight and only costs 1 point of VIT, however it will put me at a bit of a ridiculous number for SkS. I'm not sure if these are my only 2 options or not, you can see my current gear set at the end of the A5S dummy video. I think getting the body + boots + gloves might be viable, but I'd probably need to meld accuracy so I'm not sure if that's worth it or not right now. Anyway, I'm just really confused on what route I should be taking from here and any input would help me a lot.

2. I am of the opinion that SkS is either really bad for DRK, or that you have a certain threshold to meet under a very specific circumstance.

That cirumstance is MTing with Grit - if you don't hit about a 2.37-2.38 GCD without BW, Scourge is almost impossible to maintain 100% uptime on.

If this is not a deal-breaker for you, I highly recommend eschewing SkS for Det. With an attack speed increase in your rotation you readily feel the returns of Det, and although DRK is perhaps the most DoT-heavy tank with a total of 1325-1456+ (factoring in SaE's recast/duration) potency per minute being DoT-based, IMO, Det is superior. I would recommend maintaining at least a 2.4 GCD just to not gimp your MP returns, as you can only recover mana as fast as you can move through your GCDs, but beyond that, its a gray area that I can admit I have yet to explore beyond what I've laid out for you here.

I know that the fastest GCD I've had on DRK was 2.38, and I did run into some oGCD clipping at that point under BW, although this could have been latency or a mistake on my part.

Keep in mind also that BW's net gain is reduced the higher your SkS is. Its a 10% reduction to your GCD so the smaller your GCD, the smaller the gain.

Dat 727 SkS tho. Yes, that's a no-no. Get that knocked down below about 687 I believe? And you should be good. If my math is right you're rocking a 2.36 GCD now out of BW, or close to it, which is detrimental. I think the biggest reason I didn't ever have this issue is I was using Nothung up until almost a week ago when I finally got my Edge of the Sephirot. Nothung is Crit/Det instead of Crit/metric-fuckton of SkS like the upgraded Deathbringer. Also the two remaining 210 accessories I have are Gordian instead of Eso, and the Gordian Fending gear tends to have less SkS iirc. I'd have to check in-game tonight.

Right now I'm i218, and although I have a fuckton of Parry (close to 700) I'm able to clear the A6S dummy (barely) with no pots or food and with ~690 accuracy. Could have something to do with the fact that I'm rocking a cool 525 Det.

[garret_hawke]

Hi,
I'm a lvl 60 NIN and lvl 58 PLD and interested in starting DRK. Anyone have tips for beginner DRK ?