Additional Kagoshima Producer Letter LIVE Questions Answered (Updated Irregularly)

[Alberel]

Judging by the new emerging theories here our resident primals might be closer to the Fayth from FFX. The initial creation of the primal may need a sacrifice in the form of a host or vessel (Louisoix/Phoenix & Ysayle/Shiva) whilst subsequent re-summonings reconstitute it from the lifestream but with a few things lost in translation.

This even makes some degree of sense for Enkidu if we factor in that chicken Enkidu is NEVER seen alongside primal Enkidu. The chicken likely ended up being the host for the creation of the primal.

[Belhi]

Judging by the new emerging theories here our resident primals might be closer to the Fayth from FFX. The initial creation of the primal may need a sacrifice in the form of a host or vessel (Louisoix/Phoenix & Ysayle/Shiva) whilst subsequent re-summonings reconstitute it from the lifestream but with a few things lost in translation.

This even makes some degree of sense for Enkidu if we factor in that chicken Enkidu is NEVER seen alongside primal Enkidu. The chicken likely ended up being the host for the creation of the primal.

That would be so perfect for Hildibrand.

[Velox]

snip

The gear placement doesn't really have to do with each turn specifically. The gear itself is simply representations. The gear from the 1st Coil is typical clothing worn by the general population. Gear from the 2nd Coil is clothing typically found worn by people with wealth or status in Allag society. Gear from the 3rd Coil is strictly for the players to enjoy something that's "Bahamut themed"

From what I understand, the Ragnarok was part of Dalamud itself, not docked with it. The Ragnarok was one of the binding ships, the things you see sticking out of the red moon. They contained the aetheric controls that bound Bahamut and regenerated him. The types of ships that served as his "coils" (chains) were of the ragnarok class. Dalamud consisted of a holding cell (the giant sphere) and several ragnarok-class binding ships (the spikes sticking out).

That's just my interpretation of the design based off ingame text.

[Anonymoose]

After a bit of debate back and forth, I felt compelled to break down the reading as much as possible. The source of uncertainty for me is that we begin with information about Bahamut, and then we have information about primals in general, and then we go back to focusing on Bahamut, and end talking about primals in general.

I'm not completely confident that I'm not just taking information specifically about Bahamut and applying it too broadly - the specific line about "the deceased".

"Most Primals"

• Summoning comes down to the faith of the primal's followers. [F]aith acts as a beacon for the primal's dispersed aetherial essence. [A] being whose <...> parts were tossed into <...> the Lifestream [can thus be re-manifested so long as there is] the proper amount of aether to act as the catalyst.

Bahamut

• If enough followers of Bahamut (or <...> Dalamud <...>) were to gather and perform a summoning, then technically anything is possible.

???

• [T]he state of the believers when the summoning occurs directly affects the manner in which the dispersed essence of the deceased is reconfigured.

Bahamut

• Tiamat <...> and Bahamut's brood knew Bahamut better than anyone, but since their hearts were darkened by sorrow stemming from the loss, coupled with hate directed towards the Allagans, the Bahamut that was ultimately brought back ended up being naught but a twisted shell of the dragon Tiamat remembered.

1.0 Primals

• This also explains the differences between the actions and temperaments of other primals spanning from 1.0 to 2.0. The needs and desires of the believers doing the summoning changed following the Calamity, resulting in changes in the primals they summoned, Ifrit and Titan, even Shiva all being good examples (though Shiva's differences span back further than just 5 years ago).

It looks to me like it's talking about primals in general, but there's no guarantee. And, even if it is referring to more than Bahamut, is there a limitation? Is any primal independent of a previously extant thing?

There's no evidence that, say, Amun-Ra was ever a real person, but I'm sure his temple priests could have come up with a pretty clear image to summon him when Akhenaten put their position in jeopardy, if Ancient Egypt had existed in Hydaelyn.

I agree completely. To apply my source of uncertainty to your example: If "re-materializing the deceased from the Lifestream (even as something radically different than it ever was)" applies to entities beyond Bahamut, then something would have to be drawn to the beacon of the priests' faith (and given the form that their belief entailed); likely the very thing that inspired Amun-Ra (though, this example seems a little wobbly since Amun-Ra represented primordial aspect of Chaos.)

I maintain, though, that this is a bit of a moot point. If you summoned Phoenix, you'd know that Louisoix's remains followed the beacon. They might be warped so severely that no trace of his original self may remain, but those same parts are what would emerge from the Lifestream. But would it matter to anyone that didn't know that? Is there any difference to us what from so long ago is at the core of Garuda?

We might just take it as a given and move on without trying to figure out the specifics, which might just be too elusive to capture.

We'd just arrive back at - if all primals were things - what answered Ysayle's beacon if Shiva's remains are still within Hraesvelgre? The remnants of Halone, instead, perhaps. We know Iceheart's Goddess was also partly inspired by her image. Or perhaps Hraesvelgr doesn't have all ofShiva's essence.

I can't say this enough: I'm probably over-thinking it, lol.

[Rocl]

How can Primals be real if our Gods aren't real?

I really think that's the crux of the problem here--we can argue that Ferne's words are a little unclear (which is, honestly, to be expected. I'm going to blame it on the futility of language). I think our takeaway from that question was supposed to be "Yes, Bahamut may be summoned again but he may be different from the primal Bahamut that you know. It doesn't have to be in Meracydia." People (myself included) are getting hung up on the nuances of the explanation, another thing to be expected, and I'm doubtful our good voidsent will come by and squash our speculation. I can imagine him now, reading this thread, leaning back and smiling: "Yesss.. yess... speculate... theorize, posit, speculate!" (I'm sure he only reads the forums after he completes his day's work though!!) I think, and hope, we're primed to learn more about Primals coming in 3.2. The Antitower, Sephirot, Minfilia, Krile, Alisaie.... all of these people feel like they can help us begin to really divine the truth of matters.

If you really want to excuse Shiva-Primal and Shiva-Person's aether coexisting inside Hraesvelgr there's always been a little pet theory of mine that'd help. Shiva, the historical figure, is dead. I mean, what, Hraesvelgr doesn't chew his food? Is it a Jonah and the Whale situation where Hraesvelgr just swallows some human-sized meals in little plates and bowls for her? Obvious hyperbole aside--we know the celestial dragons are not omniscient. Hraesvelgr talks a lot about Shiva staying his desires to kill man and what not from within, but who's to say he's not being metaphorical? Who's not to say he's just delusional? It's just as likely, imo, that she's dead as it is that her soul literally lives inside of Hraesvelgr. (Also, if she kept the same degree of consciousness and experience of time inside of him as she did when a mortal then sweet Twelve have mercy.)

I want to go on record while I am leaving this door open (Shiva is dead and had returned to the Lifestream, Hraesvelgr is a sappy delusional loverboy), it's much the same way I leave open the Rowena-totally-worked-with-Nael door. A little bit of thinking and taking some things at face value and the whole thing falls apart. If you believe a nigh-immortal dragon over my half-presumed ramblings, you'd be a smarter man.

That said, so far, Alexander does complicate matters significantly. His summoning is the first "ideal" I can think of--Phoenix is pretty close but we know Louisoix was sort of the catalyst for that, so you can file it away neatly. Alexander's story also isn't done yet--so *communal scar touch* we'll just have to wait to see. Even if we go with the "Ravana is totally Phantom Ray" theory; Phantom Ray is like machina, isn't it? Does it even count? Wouldn't Ravana be an idealized version of a machine made man (or in this case, bug) then? How does that work? He certainly isn't part of the Lifestream...

What even qualifies as a "true death" in Eorzea? We're led to believe that you die, your aether disperses in the Lifestream, and then is used to bring life to the rest of the world, right? That's how it works with mortals--that's what we've been told by the Scions. Fwiw, they explain Primals in much the same way; but this confuses me. How can Amon revive Xande, how can Severain revive his cat girlfriend? We're told to believe that our "true death" is the dissipation of aether into the aetherial sea. How can any mortal being be reconstituted? (This is what I always took from the idea of Primals being shades/twisted manifestations. Aether given the form of what we desire most, but not the aether/soul of what we desire.) How, and why, are these mortals granted immortality? It had been over a thousand years since Shiva walked Hydaelyn--even if you don't believe all of her aether to be inside Hraesvelgr and that some returned to the land, how could it answer the call of Ysale? If a child born with a mote of Shiva's aether exists what happens to it when she is summoned? These theories of Garuda being a rogue Allag or what have you freeing the Iksalion from their enslavement-- surely 5000 years later her aether would have resurfaced somewhere else in the world, right? Even Xande complicates and directly flies in the face of what we're told. Xande was mortal. Xande died. Therefore, Xande's aether dispersed. Amon revives Xande. What, how?? Did his aether just not get their number called to reincarnate in other beings?

Perhaps a Primal summoning / mortal revival needs only a modicum of the original's aether to work. So, 0.01% of Garuda-Mortal's aether is in the mix, the Ixali summon a Primal and they want Garuda so it's Garuda. Mayhap that's why Xande went crazy (-ier), the disjointedness of a sort of patchwork soul. How does that work though--when and how and by what means is the aether chosen for crystallization, or the formation in general (if crystals not used)? It's all so very bothersome. We're so close but missing a key piece of the puzzle that we're not really sure what the picture is. Realistically, we can understand Primals to be Hydaelyn summoning an Egi-like creature (against Her will). We know our Egis, carbuncles, and whathaveyou need a blueprint to follow so it does make sense there would be one involved in Primal summoning as well. BUT WHERE? BUT WHAT?

Aaaaaaaand I've lost my train of thought a while ago again. I really should outline these posts before I start. Listen to all those writing/English teachers kids, use a draft so you don't look like a crazy person.

[Endemerrin]

The gear placement doesn't really have to do with each turn specifically. --

As far as the Ragnarok is concerned, it would seem it's both, and Internment Hulks were Starships. In fact, first coil was possibly the first of it's kind. The third turn of first coil's description very explicitly states the ruins you explore are known as "the Ragnarok", which was a colossal starship that fell away from Dalamud as Bahamut broke free. Starship implies the ability to, simply put, travel amongst the stars. However, it is later explained in Azys Lla that the giant golden structure we first arrive at was a docking ring known as the Helix. That docking ring was large enough to house Ragnarok-class internment hulks, which was apparently a huge feat. The log asserts that not many Imperial landings had that capability due to the ship's massive size.

Now, if we were to keep in mind real world naval ship classifications, classes are often named after the first vessel of said class to be commissioned and built. So, for example, the Ragnarok would be the first Interment Hulk built by the Allagans, thus establishing all future hulks to be of a Ragnarok-class, despite carrying names of their own. It was the progenitor of that starship class. That being said, we can simply infer that these internment hulks had the ability to dock with and fly away from Dalamud. After all, were Dalamud to be manned by personnel, they would need some means of ferrying supplies to the satellite. The fact alone that Ragnarok-class hulks could dock in Azys Lla implies they traveled to and from Dalamud.

As far as equipment is concerned, it honestly wouldn't make much sense in lore for it to be equipment worn by citizens for a wide, wide variety of reasons. First and foremost, there's weaponry involved. We know that by the end of their reign, the Allagan Empire had replaced most of it's standing millitary with Automatons to fight their wars instead of traditional soldiers. That being said, we find in Azys Lla that they did have some remaining security forces and personnel. Summoners would likely be included in this. Now, keep in mind that all of the coil gear is armor. Allagan citizens would have literally no need for huge suits of Allagan Wootz plate armor. It just wouldn't make sense for a civilization that's a utopia protected by their own mechanical and aetherical creations. Chances are they had pretty tight regulation on the sale and possession of weaponry, much like we do in our modern society. They were a massive empire that conquered other territories, after all. It wouldn't bode well for them if the general populace had access to powerful weaponry and could stage an uprising.

These suits of armor are, however, found in locations that would deem them most relevant. The starships would likely have crew manning them, and the starships would absolutely need security, given the importance of the structure they were traveling to and from. There most certainly is a reason why the Allagan gear exists, and why it's specifically found in coil. They wouldn't leave such a massive inconsistency when other armor in the game have reasons of their own. Grand company coats? Those are only obtainable and wearable by soldiers in those grand companies. Ishgardian Knight armor found in the Dusk Vigil? Well, it was manned by Ishgardian Knights. Sharlayan coats found in the Gubal Library? Probably left behind by the scholars as they fled. Armor from the era when Ishgard was first founded in the Aery? Makes absolutely perfect sense, given the story surrounding Niddhog. There's a trend here, and Coil is most certainly not exempt.

Even in 1.0, they stuck to their guns. Darklight armor was worn by the Darklight Raiders, who had lost their lives in the Aurum Vale and Cutter's Cry. That's why we found said equipment in those areas.

[WhiteArchmage]

Now that Moose brought it back to my attention, Koji Fox DOES mention that worship of Dalamud would be the same as worship of Bahamut. Knowing about a certain doomsday cult, might we argue that things might get, excuse the pun, baaaaaaad?

Also, about Rocl's question on what happens when you die, it's a bit of a stretch but, in FF7 (and, to be safe, big honking SPOILERS ahead), you returned to the Lifestream and some part of your consciousness stayed there (read: Zack, who doesn't have a drop of Ancient blood in him) and the Ancients themselves maintained their consciousness while inside the Lifestream; Sephiroth is a special exception not (just) because of his Jenova cells, but because his will was so strong that he kept his sense of self while inside the Lifestream and even manipulated it somewhat, something only the Cetra could do.

Something similar may be at work in Hydaelin: your aether disperses into the Lifestream but there is a tiny fragment of what makes you "you" (your mind or soul, to put a name on it) still remaining there when your aether is reborn, or a specially strong-willed individual (say, Edda's ghost or Xande) can remain there longer or in a more concrete capacity so they can actually be brought back. Maybe Primal summoning only needs, as Rocl says, just a teeny, tiny portion of "you" to base off and the rest is given form by belief. Honestly, I'd rather believe the beings we know as Princ-I mean, Primals, WERE historical characters a long time ago warped by centuries of changing dogma (not unlike the differences between New Testament and Old Testament God, so to speak).

[Alberel]

We'd just arrive back at - if all primals were things - what answered Ysayle's beacon if Shiva's remains are still within Hraesvelgre? The remnants of Halone, instead, perhaps. We know Iceheart's Goddess was also partly inspired by her image. Or perhaps Hraesvelgr doesn't have all ofShiva's essence.

I can't say this enough: I'm probably over-thinking it, lol.

If all primals were things there would still have to be a first time that primal was summoned or created. There was a moment when Phoenix was created. Who's to say we haven't borne witness to another primal's birth?

Perhaps Ysayle didn't summon anything and instead created a new primal within her own body. Recall Nabriales referring to her as a 'vessel'. The final time Ysayle calls on Shiva she calls her "Goddess of mine own creation" at which point I would argue she no longer has faith in any entity lingering in the lifestream to be called upon.

The circumstances surrounding the summoning of Shiva are completely unique compared to any of the other primals. Of all things it bears the most similarities with the creation of Phoenix though.

[Frederick22]

snip

I totally agreed with you. I too think that the true essence of the mortal being that once was alive and inspire the myth of its primal is just 0,001% of it.
You know I also think that Xande may have being a primal is some way, I mean why the Emperor of allag would want to destroy all what he achieve and sending to nothingelse with the void?

[Kurogaea]

Naming convention Keeper section.

I can't find the relation to my comment to your Keepers of the moon reference. I know who they are though they have moved around a lot in the past. I can't recall but I believe it had to do with harsh winters. Not that I'm certain or anything but aren't the origin of the allagans unknown atm dating back to times unknown? I assumed it was true since all we do is look at their stuff.