Unukalhai: Primals and Eikons

[WhiteArchmage]

The general consensus seems to be that, for the most part, we still know too little (and the information we DO have is pretty conflicting) about what is the difference between an Eikon and a Primal. In Bahamut's case (an Elder Primal) he was kept in stasis by dragons being kept in stasis plus something else I may not remember right now.

Garuda, Ravana and all the other known Primals need to feed of crystals or the aether from the land to maintain their forms, while Belias-egi throws a whole wrench in it by being an egi based off an Elder Primal with no known tribe (beast or otherwise) to make the original summoning that would have formed him (Belias-egi being a beefed-up Ifrit-egi non-withstanding).

However, the Triad seems weird in that they don't seem to ABSORB aether, but rather RELEASE it. If I'm understanding things right, the Triad were some sort of battery for Azys La, seeing as how at least Sephirot's tribe that would have kept him summoned is all but extinct and 3 primals absorbing the aether of the surrounding area would have guaranteed that all those islands would have fallen long before we got there. I'm taking a shot in the dark here but until we are confirmed as to what, exactly, the Triad IS and how in Hydaelin did Allag manage to bind them, I reckon they are (if the terms are indeed different) Eikons, if simply because not-Primals doesn't have the same ring to it.

Random idea: The Triad were actually bound separately, with Sephirot being either the first or last bound. If first, he's getting released first because the technique wasn't quite as sophisticated for his binding at the time and/or hab been corroding longer than the others, and if the second, because his bounds depend on the other two, and with those weakening, his were the first to fully break.

...and now just wait for someone to completely disprove this lol

[CyrilLucifer]

Random idea: The Triad were actually bound separately, with Sephirot being either the first or last bound. If first, he's getting released first because the technique wasn't quite as sophisticated for his binding at the time and/or hab been corroding longer than the others, and if the second, because his bounds depend on the other two, and with those weakening, his were the first to fully break.

I believe the artbook has disproved this part.

The Singularity Reactor houses the "Triad Core," which has all three of the cores together in the same place. So it's not older tech that is awakening him, it's something different. Maybe even something as simple as "his core was closer to Thordan."

Edit: Here's the picture for you, stolen from my old thread, not embedding it because there's no point: http://i.imgur.com/QsrKrRU.png

[Rocl]

Feh feh feh! Roughly two weeks until we get some answers and new questions and this whole thing again!

However, there's a lot here I want to discuss too so I'm not exactly free of blame of here....

The Sephirot Battle Preview (which will soon be our Sephirot Duty Finder description) is our first real instance of confirmation Eikons are summoned. For example, in the OP, Unulhakai is unsure if Eikons are even summoned in the same manner as Primals. (Let's try to ignore how much deliberate misinformation our totally-not-Elidibus ally is feeding us, and on that note let's just put Belias-Egi as far back in the closet of things we don't talk about ever as possible because reasons which make Rocl monumentally sad.) Given this information, the barrier twixt Primal and Eikon weakens even further-- we know Sephirot was not summoned until the Allag invasion of Meracydia. A deiform summoned to repel Allagan invasion...? Where have I heard that before....?

Bahamut, for all intents and purposes, functions very similarly to Sephirot as of now. Both are summoned deiforms to repel the Allagan invasion of Meracydia, which likely means both are some degree of Primal. However, while Unulhakai trips over himself dubbing Odin an Eikon, no such courtesy is extended to Bahamut. This fact is doubly troubling considering before the Odin-Eikon 'revelation' we were led to believe Bahamut and Odin the same class of Primal (in this case Elder). Furthermore if we believe in Hraesvelgr's touchyfeely I have Shiva's soul within me crap we can't even do a "Primals are the warped shades of someone attempting to call back a soul from the Lifestream, while Eikons represent ideal gods which have never existed." The former explaining why Shiva, Thordan, and Bahamut are all Primals but perhaps why something like Zantetsuken/Odin is more nebulous (a personification of strength vs a personification of, well, a person). Titan, Ramuh, and the like all having actually existed as mortals unbeknownst to their respective worshipers is necessary to make this work. (Let's say Leviathan was a totally rad sahagin or perhaps an overgrown sea serpent much like Thalaos and Perykos, a beast rather than man)

Where was I again? Oh yes, Bahamut and Sephirot share far too many similarities for me to now cleanly believe in the Eikon/Primal split. Prior to the Seventh Umbral Era, Bahamut was a moon. He was there in the sky, forever Menphina's loyal hound and naught more. Only after Bozja Citadel, the Meteor Project, and the lunar transmitter did he begin to show signs of life. The primary "sign of life" here being the absorption of a defeated Primal's aether. Who can forget the revelation that each time we felled Garuda and Ifrit fed the red moon their aether stolen from Hydaelyn's bosom!? Both Bahamut and Sephirot, while asleep, were somehow sustained and used to power. Bahamut fed off the prayer and worship of his comatose children while Sephirot we aren't clear of. We're led to believe Sephirot and the Triad were used to hoist Azys Lla into the sky, and Bahamut used in much the same way for Dalamud. Perhaps the Allag saw the power of prayer in their Primal foes but had no way to harness without using said foes in their machinations? "Hey do you know what would be cool? If we could just pray hunger away! Oh it isn't working... let's trick the neighboring nature into summoning a god, capture it and then use it to power a soylent green factory. Electricity is for nerds."

I'm actually rather worried about this whole thing though. Hydaelyn has gotten weaker as the Eras have gone on. We know Bahamut's defeat at the hands of Louisoix released a cataclysmic amount of aether back into the planet and then it was all rerouted by the Coils too. If we defeat the Triad (and I have it on good authority we will), and IF they function the same way, won't we be returning some more monumental amounts of aether back to Hydaelyn? In the long run I'm sure it's good for the planet but boy howdy I'd hate to lose more than just the West Shroud, y'know?

Furthermore, when discussing Primals, Bahamut alone isn't left unlisted. Where is Good King Moggle Mog XII? Where is King Thordan? Alexander? Phoenix? *shudders* Enkidu? Why are these Primals so callously forgotten--especially when two (the Kings, funnily enough) are known to have direct Ascian involvement in their summoning? Unulhakai only mentions Primals who feed off elementally aspected aether--could it be that simple? After all this time could King Moggle Mog be our first tango with an Eikon? Or does it have to deal with their perpetuation cost? Do Eikons have a decidedly smaller, perhaps non-existent tax on the planet? All the Eikons we know are decidedly ancient (Odin, the Triad) could it be that the Ascians found a more efficient way to mess with Hydaelyn through Primals? Alexander is sort of an outlier here, because we know when he turns on for that brief second post HW MSQ he sucks up enough aether to make good Y'shtola crazy worried--but he's also a recently summoned deiform. So, let's say an Eikon takes 100 aether away and that's it it's done, but a Primal takes 20 aether from Hydaelyn and another 5 of the correct aspect as long as it draws breath? Perhaps Alexander is a neo-primal, a new deiform with the power of an Eikon but the cost of a Primal, doubly effective at weakening the planet. Could Eikons require a focal object for summoning? Odin's sword Zantetsuken being the obvious but let's say Bahamut's heart, Alexander's Gordian Knot, then what else do we have? Well.. there is one thing...

There are still so many unknowns here--the ancient legends of Gnath and Vanu both describing a ravenous beast whose eyes were plucked out. Could it be the same being-- could Ravana and Bismarck be different aspects/idealizations of the same god? Unulhakai's "gift" in knowing both the dual-element Primals would seek Azys Lla seems awfully suspicious. Could this, combined with the focal object theory, mean that the Ravana Bismarck megazord was an Eikon split? Of course, only one of these listed have been a "true" Eikon--the Zantetsuken Odin. Mayhaps the Triad's cores? We'll see we'll see.....

I hope we get some answers and have time to argue about the significance of Alisaie's wardrobe change or lack thereof tho

I... went to go reread the Bismarck and Ravana Extreme quests and have derailed my train of thought even further than it was.

Over the course of the hour my thoughts wandered way too much, I apologize.

[myahele]

Maybe the Eikons are simply the 1st "Primals" to have existed and that their summoning/ creation is different from the rest of the primals and due to that they're alot more powerful.

The method we know of is a recreation by the Asciens. A way to perpetually resummon primals should they be defeated/ captured.

[Nalien]

Plot twist;

Primals are formed from aether.

Eikons form around an individual.

Shiva and Thordan are technically Eikons. Odin, we've never technically beaten, so a person could have transformed into that blade... Kill Sephirot and a tree person pops out? Stranger things could happen... The whole tribe could literally be the remnants of Sephirot in that case... Tree people can reproduce asexually? The one that "becomes" Sephirot later reproduces the whole tribe...

[SecretCrowds]

Unukalhai: Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva. Born of the land and returned to it.
Unukalhai: Six primals, one for every elemental aspect. So where does that leave Ravana and Bismarck?
Unukalhai: Earth and fire. Water and wind. Your latest foes are aspected to not one element but two.
Unukalhai: A rather simple but noteworthy distinction, for it allows them to feed upon aether that much more efficiently.

The six Primals had one element, so they had the shortest summoning duration. Bismarck and Ravana had two elements, so they lasted longer. Hence why Bismarck was able to swim(?) among the clouds for a long time.

But what about the Elder Primals Bahamut and Odin? Are they aspected to even more elements or none at all? Is that why they can roam the lands for almost an eternity? Would a being without an element last the longest? Are what the Garleans call Eikons basically what Eorzans refer to as Elder Primals?

What about light and darkness? Are these considered elements? Can a being of light or darkness be summoned as a primal? And would they last even longer?

[Kaiser-Ace]

The six Primals had one element, so they had the shortest summoning duration. Bismarck and Ravana had two elements, so they lasted longer. Hence why Bismarck was able to swim(?) among the clouds for a long time.

But what about the Elder Primals Bahamut and Odin? Are they aspected to even more elements or none at all? Is that why they can roam the lands for almost an eternity? Would a being without an element last the longest? Are what the Garleans call Eikons basically what Eorzans refer to as Elder Primals?

What about light and darkness? Are these considered elements? Can a being of light or darkness be summoned as a primal? And would they last even longer?

Zantetsuken feeds off ambient aether and in someway summons Odin using it's current wielder as a catalyst where as Bahamut was fed some kind of artificially focused aether via the Binding Coils. Both they and Phoenix who seemed to be given a one time summon by The Twelve themselves and then later granted a fragment of Bahamut's own energy to re-manifest...... The more I think about it the more it seems where shooting at the wrong target here.

Aether is Aether no matter what and Primals, Elementals, Ascians, and even Eikons are all made of it. Hydaelyn and Zodiark are linked in some mysterious way that is some how linked to the planet's lifestream. And there's still Midgardsormr and The Twelve throwing monkey wrenches in everything.

I just can't help but feel the answer is staring us in the face and we aren't going to notice it till it jack slaps us.

[Berethos]

I'm likely reading too much into this, but I find it interesting that the words used in the preview don't actually mention summoning...just that it was "brought into being" as someone/thing to combat the Allagan invasion. That particular phrase could easily (and let's be honest, likely does) refer to being created from aether based on the deity they worshiped...

But it could also mean that it existed elsewhere and was brought into being in Eorzea.

I'm not inclined to think it likely, just thought it interesting that the words used in the preview do leave that little bit of room for interpretation.

[myahele]

What if Remnant of Sephirot truly are the remains of Sephirot; meaning the tree-like race is Sephirot and all they need to do is "rejoin" with each other to become Sephirot.

Perhaps each of the Triad is the same way and probably warred with each other?

[CyrilLucifer]

Unrelated to anything, but for maximum creepiness I'm hoping totally-not-Elidibus-or-Elidibus'-servant ages himself up a bit after every patch by a few years.

So by the time we hit 3.5 he's not tiny-Eli anymore, but a full Elidibus for us to be all to be completely shocked and horrified about.