Hardcore, easy mode and the XI veteran

[HoolieWho]

It seems the OP played FFXI for seven years despite finding no challenge in it. I'm sorry to hear that.

FFXI did have events where all the challenge was reduced to getting claim and the rest was throwing a large enough corporate LS at the event mindlessly following a time-honored strategy. I agree that doesn't sound like fun.

Since when does "hard" have to be a timesink or have a punishment associated with it?

A boss fight can't simply be difficult?
A quest can't simply require some strategy?

It's the ridiculous assumptions of what "hardcore" means, that is causing this debate to be stereotyped into the freekin ground.

Content doesn't have to punish players or be a timesink to provide the difficulty we want.

Drop your mental illusion that a challenging encounter requires 200 hours of farming and a team of 400.

It doesn't.

The proportion of challenging and unchallenging content is the single most important issue, not the hardcore/casual regurgitated argument that serves no other purpose than for personal venting.

I would like to see some challenging small group content. I am a casual player time-wise, but I still think the most satisfaction in a game comes from overcoming challenges. I found plenty of these in FFXI. Many of the mission fights, many NMs, some BCNMs, Limbus, Assaults and Salvage. Picking one favorite, Nyzul Isle Assault is a perfect model for the type of backbone content I would like to see in an MMO. It can be done with friends or a pickup group, flexible on class requirements. Randomness to promote thinking on the fly.

Oh, and when I say I want challenging group content, that doesn't mean I want it to be challenging to form a small group, like it is now.

[Rhomagus]

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. I'm really having trouble finding where I would disagree, but I'm overwhelmingly inline with his quick =/= easy argument.

That's like saying getting all the gold medals for your S class license in Gran Turismo is easy. Granted FFXIV isn't a racing game so the goal isn't the same but difficulty is defined by the skill needed to ensure a successful outcome not time spent to ensure a successful outcome. Time should be a byproduct or side effect of failure not the primary means to artificially create difficulty.

To apply it directly to the Final Fantasy franchise, it'd be like saying getting to the Terrace in Memoria within 24 hours in order to unlock Ragnarok II is an easy way to beat Final Fantasy IX. The easier way to beat that game would be to methodically learn each ability before moving forward rather than having to utilize specific weapons and varying party setups accordingly in order to successfully fulfill the requirements for Ragnarok II.

In general the franchise has offered both methods to its players. If you so chose to, you could level up and overpower your opposition, or if you were smart and employed an efficient strategy, you could defeat enemies significantly earlier than you may have otherwise thought.

The developers were also known for rewarding you for going out of your way and exploring, they never forced you to explore, which ties into the whole anima argument but that's another thread.

Great work Sephrick +1

[Obsy]

100% on board with OP. Well said. Pip pip.

[SpiritZ]

Take a look at Dark Souls ( Or Demon Souls). There is the true definition of Hardcore.

[Gath]

TL: DR

My 1 gil is worth more than your 1 gil.

[Konachibi]

Take a look at Dark Souls ( Or Demon Souls). There is the true definition of Hardcore.

Here's a hardcore game:

Prinny 2

It's so hardcore it starts you off with 999 lives simply because you'll die such a ridiculous amount of times trying to get to the end.

[Phen]

Pretty good I agree very much overall I do want to take a few things in the activities section.

Dynamis was a good system... but it required a few too many people. Timing pulls, dealing with hordes and having strategies for certain things was great. every 3 days and find the group that has a schedule that meets up with your other activities... not so great. Drop rates were as you said retarded. Something like a dusty artifact you exchange for whatever job you actually went there for would have been better than doing xarc x billion times to get the two dedicated rdm in your shell what they rightfully deserve.

BCNM were good for describing boss fights, i dont think they were a good system minus maybe ENM but they required good strategy... except nin rdm blm and just do whatever permeated or manaburn since the risk was so high to go in again.

Assault was probably one of the better things ever. A variety of objectives and play styles to accomplish goals, grind away an easy one or clear your way up. Best reward reserved for full completion. Point and random drop rewards.

Nyzul as a subsection was team play versatile and interesting- some drop rate issues (yes i killed floor 80 24 times and still never saw the body i needed before my group had other stuff to do) but I still think that was a ton of fun (but i love dungeon crawlers so take that with a grain of salt).

Salvage was a fantastic thing, but TERRIBLE drop rates. Strategy, unique routes etc, its a good model- the one issue was someone always ended up being the naked support or short sticked. Drop rates are what i think killed this event from not being so great.

Oh wait... all these are instances (traditional dyna having been one group essentially is)... hmmm.

[OmegaNovaios]

Let me start this by saying there was nothing hardcore about Final Fantasy XI.

Ever.

Yet every time Yoshi-P and crew announce something coming in a future patch for XIV, it triggers a litany of posts from a very vocal minority and their sock accounts insisting that the continued "easy mode" will be the "death of the game." And that Square Enix must cater to the "hardcore" XI converts for the game to have a player base.

The thing is, suggesting one is hardcore assumes that there is some level of player skill involved with XI. Which there wasn't. You literally waited for a random number generator to do all the work.

Personally, I poured seven years into XI. Seven years of sleepless nights doing HNMs; leveling Monk, Dragoon, Red Mage and Corsair to 75 and eventually to 90; Dynamis; sky; sea; Einherjar; Nyzul Isle; CoP missions; Campaign; and Abyssea.

It's because of this devotion to the game that I feel my opinion is of some value, and why I want to take the time to illustrate where XIV should never be like XI in certain aspects that the vocal minority continuously demands the "hardcore XI players" want.

In many ways, the release of XIV mirrors the release of XI. From the rocky reviews to the lack of content, in many ways we are playing a spiritual successor to XI. But even Yoshi-P and crew seem to realize that's a bad thing.

Out of this, there seems to have been an unspoken motto emerge: "Easy to start, difficult to master."

I The Grind

XI's leveling process was brutal. Not because it was difficult, but because it was slow.

But there wasn't much else to do but level early in XI's life. So when a party did finally come my way, I savored every ounce of my 3,000 to 5,000 exp per hour. But it was never with a sense of accomplishment. It was always a sense of relief from frustration. Like finally getting to only tread water after swimming against the current.

The grind was the epitome of XI gameplay, and nothing about it was hardcore. The only reason XI's leveling process took as long as it did was because for a good portion of the games early life, the devs were trying to stall while they created actual content.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/286

This was an announcement that saw a large "easy mode" reaction. But if the launch state of XIV shows anything, it's that hubris causes history to repeat itself.

As if fitting in XI's mold, XIV was launched before it was ready, and there was a scramble to add things like open world NMs -- just as the XI team did all those years ago.

But it would seem at least Yoshi-P has learned from past mistakes. Most importantly, that the game shouldn't be the grind. It should be challenging activities participated in by friends.

You might ask, "But, Sephrick, how will anyone know how to do their job? Certainly it was the long grind in XI that made players pro at endgame."

Nay. Twas not the hours spent slaughtering crabs or crawlers that made a player effective at endgame.

Was it little blue crab #3,476 that came with the revelation of how to best Vrtra? Did crawler #7,978 enlighten anyone on the best approach to Dynamis?

No.

Those events were overcome through trial and error by gamers who spent drawn out months learning only the very basic mechanics of the game in an arduous and arbitrary grind intended to do nothing more than to stall players while the development team cooked up something for their players to actually do with their capped characters.

The kind of basics most players had down pat by the time they exited Qufim Island.

To argue that new players need a long grind in XIV to "learn their job" is hypocrisy. How will current players learn their job after stat mechanics are altered, class abilities changed and jobs introduced lest they start at level 1?

Just as they did in XI; through trial and error in actual events. Some worry that the announced changes will encourage powerleveling. But this is nothing new to MMOs, especially XI. I recall many parties, especially those early on, involving a capped White Mage cure-bombing for hate and casting Stoneskin to negate damage. Then, if anyone attempted to pull hate they were scolded. Where there's a will, there's a way.

The grind should be short enough for a player to learn the basics of their job's approach to its intended role. How many times does an archer need to shoot an arrow before they figure out, "this is where I should stand and this is the button I press." How many cures does a conjurer need to cast before they realize where the hate line is?

I welcome the changes to XIV's leveling process. Between leves, Behest, parties and Caravan Escorts, there's plenty of opportunity for players to learn the proper buttons to press in a combat situation.

But the beauty is that a player can learn on their own terms.

To sum it up, there's nothing hardcore about a slow leveling process that is an antiquated system -- that lacks any form of challenge -- whose design is obviously only to stall the player.

II Activities

Another "easy mode" target are the raids. More often associated with the "WoW-ing" of XIV, XI veterans look back at a game with 10+ years of development and wonder "why isn't my favorite activity from that in XIV? It worked so well."

In February of 2003, the first BCNMs were added. Players have been quick to criticize Darkhold as being bland or even "copy and paste." But are the BCNMs of XI really a better alternative?

Darkhold has subtle nuances that give it the feel of a real cavern, whereas the BCNMs were not more than a room whose design felt entirely disconnected from the design of the area around their entrance points.

It wasn't until February 2004 that Dynamis areas were opened and, well, not much has changed in the game until Abyssea.

The motto of XI was thus: "Allow few to participate, and fewer to achieve a reward."

XI's activities had little if anything to do with skill. It was a matter of staying awake long enough to roll the imaginary dice in hopes they come up in your favor.

I say XIV is steering in the proper direction. One that is a tangent from the path its predecessor laid. There's a reason that players still do activities like Dynamis, Sky and Sea -- and it's not because they're fun. It's because after years of playing, many still haven't seen their desired drops fall. Mission complete on SE's part, because it does keep around those who think they're hardcore. That is until Abyssea evened the odds.

Even the HNM system lacked any real challenge. The only "challenge" was paying attention for 30 seconds every thirty minutes to try and claim the mob. After that, it was merely a matter of having a minimum amount of bodies present to auto-attack and heal till the mob was dead.

The XIV devs are coming out with a variety of gameplay options which seem to be sticking to the motto; "easy to start, difficult to master." If the Darkhold is a sign of things to come, I couldn't be happier.

It's not easy mode to have a fair shot. It's just good game design.

III Easy vs Speedy

XI was a game that took every opportunity to slow a player's overall progress. Gil sinks, low drop rates, exp loss on death, long spawn timers, reserved zones and the need for at least six people of specific roles to achieve even the most mundane tasks.

But just as time sinks do not equate hardcore, quick does not equate easy mode.

A developer does not need to keep a carrot on a stick if players find true value in maintaining a subscription through content.

IV Gear

That carrot on the stick for XI was gear. Not just any gear. THE gear. The one item for each slot that was desired for the life of the game.

It's been mentioned off hand by Yoshi-P that they wouldn't mind putting new activities and new gear into the game every three months or so. Suddenly, those same "hardcore" players cry out, "but what about my gear?"

I'm not saying there shouldn't be items that are difficult to obtain. Or even items similar to XI's relics which take dedication to ever acquire.

But no gear in XI took hardcore gameplay to obtain. It was just a matter of waiting for your chance to roll the dice.

V Conclusion

The industry has come a long way since 2002. And SE designed XIV with the intent of cutting into a market XI had yet to tap.

XIV still has a chance to be a game that could interest a broad audience. But first, that vocal minority needs to realize the difference between hardcore and nonesense.

After reading numerous posts that decry something is "easy mode" I've come to realize that no one is really concerned with how difficult something is or isn't. They're concerned with their ability to stand on the top of the mountain and claim it as theirs.

Because that's what XI's "hardcore" boiled down to; a bunch of adults acting like spoiled children waiving their toys in other people's faces thinking they were hardcore because they didn't leave their computer for 36 hours whilst camping an HNM.

No skill, no true effort. Just time.

XIV will be a game that allows everyone to step up to the plate and play in their own way. That shouldn't bother anyone, unless all they want is their own selfish mountain to stand on. And there's nothing hardcore about that.

Because in the end, casual players don't want hand outs. They just want to play.

I agree that this "hardcore" gameplay you speak of is quite foolish, but I would like you to point out an MMO that is hardcore by your definition and I'll go play that one.

[Zenaku]

Unfortunately though I disagree with you on this I for one thought FFXI was Easy what made it hard was the mobs and you needed team work and each job had a role Vs ffxiv where you can really get any person in your party and go off and fight raptors.

waiting 24 hours for a HNM to pop is not Hardcore but fighting a HNM like serket that is challenging and put your team to it's max is fun. FFXI leveling is more fun then FFXIV where you just kill and walk around killing each class had a role and knew what to do.

Puller ---> Tank ---> DD ---> DD ---> DD ---> Healer

Vs ffxiv

DD,DD,DD,DD,DD,DD,DD,Healer/DD and any DD can tank beside maybe ranger.

I like the fact it took long to grind that mean less people be doing the endgame events, and when people did them it was not easy cake to get all your gear within a few week it took time. This what make players stay even in WoW getting the Raid gear is not easy and take time even the gear you can use on low level account that is overpowering.

FFXIV is trying to become even more casual then wow which then casual going to dislike how fast and quick everything is. FFXIV is one of the only game that allow you to wear about everything beside rare,ex item and allow you to use any spell in the game. At least jobs would fix this issue but if they don't put a limit on the raids and party event which i mean by this is "Can't enter without a Job" then everyone going to go on playing Class.

FFXIV does not need to be FFXI 2.0 or WoW-clone but it sure can take FFXI ideas and WoW idea and make it, it's own without copying it 100%. If ffxiv was release with 60% of what ffxi had but new and it's own way ffxiv would have not fail as bad.
I understand part of what you saying a HNM does not need to be 1min or 50hours to be hardcore it how hard it would be to take it down. Doing the NM to get the 35+ gear for me and my gf was fun when we just level 36 tho some where super easy.

FFXIV need become it's own standard game and stop trying to be what the market standard is no one really stay long anyways they go back to wow,rift or w/e game they played before. What they going to have left is FFXI and real fan of SE and final fantasy games.

And the kids you talking about maybe that was around whitegate time but around the time i played. Hardcore players really enjoy helping others and getting people items. In every game you going to find dumbass elitist that what you seeing not hardcore players.

[Carzilla]

this game needs content that "stimulates" the mind right now its just a boring "hack and slash" with no personal content you can make your own. Social games are about showing off your uniqueness, people want to have others "jocking their stuff" like a set of rims for your car that others cant afford. thats why nerds play this thing for 36hrs at a time TO SHOW OFF. : )