FFXIV is becoming a grind fest with little enjoyment.

[Popotolord]

Because there really isn't, it was an illusion and trick. :P

• A point every other level, amounting to only 30+ distributable at lvl 60 out of the hundreds already done for you
• Armoury System is a zombie of a feature
• "Materia" is just used to boost your generic attributes since your equipment might have a different set of generic attributes ( and it doesn't even let you boost the stats it already has )
• Other mainline FF games have more customization than a freaking MMO

You're right. And that's why I'm so disappointed at FFXIV I just wanted to have an adventure, playing a character built to my liking, and have fun with the friends you make online. But FFXIV just ends up feeling like a single player action game, with CO-OP, and a few RPG features.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Everquest's total population peaked at 500k as well. You can't compare older games to newer games unless you account for both supply and demand, my friend.

Modern-day MMO populations are massive to those of the late 90's. In fact, demand to play MMOs has increased faster than the hardware technology that runs them. FFXIV can be 100% openworld...if you're prepared to cut the game's polygon count by 40% and limit server pop to 1000 players max.

Technology is all about tradeoffs, my friend. In the gaming world you can't have your cake AND eat it too. You want more of X, you gotta give up Y. It's a careful balancing act that all developers have to overcome.

It was also at a time when only a few people played online games. 500k would be like 20million now, due to population of people actually able to run that game on their computer.

500k to a million players FOR THAT time period... is QUITE a lot actually.

Comparing it to now, where almost 100x more people play?

[Kosmos992k]

Even your theme park analogy falls flat. Are you going to say Disney World uses the same concepts as something cheap like Six Flags? Of course not. Disney puts effort into their design to craft a unique exerience.

You must fear the retribution of The Mouse if you believe that. If you boil any theme park experience down to the mechanics, there is almost no 'innovation'. The difference between Disney and other theme parks is the *theme* - aka the aesthetics. The underlying mechanics are identical, sure they might be rearranged a little for variety, but they are still the same. Put at it's most basic, a roller coaster is a roller coaster is a roller coaster whether it has Mickey Mouse, Scooby Doo or Maximus Prime emblazoned on the front of the cars, it's still just a roller coaster.

[Callback]

You must fear the retribution of The Mouse if you believe that. If you boil any theme park experience down to the mechanics, there is almost no 'innovation'. The difference between Disney and other theme parks is the *theme* - aka the aesthetics. The underlying mechanics are identical, sure they might be rearranged a little for variety, but they are still the same. Put at it's most basic, a roller coaster is a roller coaster is a roller coaster whether it has Mickey Mouse, Scooby Doo or Maximus Prime emblazoned on the front of the cars, it's still just a roller coaster.

I'm not saying Disney isn't manipulative, quite the opposite. They put just that much more effort into crafting the experience to hit all they key points that will draw in and hook an audience for life. Of course they reuse core ride mechanics within the parks, but they were the ones to invent the majority of them in the first place. Before Disney, who used motion simulators? Who used rides as a delivery vehicle for narrative? Who invented the rolling sim? The gameride? A majority of the rides' core mechanic is being an exhibit of animatronics which they also pioneered. It avoids the majority of old conventions, or uses them sparingly. It's effectively the polar opposite of a "standard" amusement park, and uses that to its advantage in its dominance over the market. If it were just the same old tired mechanics, guests would have no motivation to return.

That's what they do. They force you to come back by remaining unique. If you want that kind of experience, you have to go to them because nobody else provides it. On the opposite hand, if you asked me if I wanted to go to Hershey Park, I would ask why, when I can get the same experience at my local amusement park a couple towns over.

[Warlyx]

roller coaster is a roller coaster is a roller coaster whether it has Mickey Mouse, Scooby Doo or Maximus Prime emblazoned on the front of the cars, it's still just a roller coaster.

FFXIV is the 2nd one

edit : lol just noticed the name "lightning express" hahaha !!!

[Purrfectstorm]

And in the end, we're all gonna die anyway ._.'

I LOL'ed at this. It reminded me of this article about Magic: the Gathering:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...nners-Win.html

At least one thing from this article is applicable to FFXIV - SE really can't win no matter what they do. They've been trying to walk this balance between "hardcore raiders" and "casuals" for a couple of years now. I mean, they can do it, they have been doing it, but no matter what they do, one of these "sides" is going to get angry. Now I've personally been having tons of fun still and I play all the time, but I admit there is room for improvement. Of course, to be technical, there is always room for improvement if you're being really honest. Still, I think SE could be more imaginative in a number of ways, item stats and character customization for one (in other words, by adding depth to their game and introducing real builds).

There are limits to how much content they can release in a given timeframe and they've been trying to walk that tightrope too. I think players expect that with less time in between updates they will get less content but it seems like the time in between updates has gotten longer and we're still getting less content. The thing is that SE set an expectation for both content timing and amount. Who knows if they had to work their people to the bone to get that, but now the players expect it, and I don't think they are wrong to.

Personally, there is enough content for me because I do all sorts of things, but for players that only like to raid or only like to run 4-person dungeons or whatever, maybe they should accept that there isn't enough interesting content to keep them busy x hours per day, x months at a time. To that I can only suggest taking breaks, playing other games sometimes, going outside, etc. I think the cost of the game per hour of enjoyment is very cheap entertainment all things considered and you don't need to put in 40+ hour gaming weeks to "get your money's worth."

Now even though I have relatively few complaints with FFXIV, some things I'd be happy about are:

- More interesting item stats (reduced cooldowns, buffs to certain skills, bonus skills, etc.) Would it be hard to balance. Sure. But it's not impossible and totally worth the time it would take in my view.

- Character builds (the ability to prioritize skills, for example, like if you don't like one skill, you can make it weaker in exchange for buffing another)

- Increased gear longevity and item exclusivity. I think these 2 things go hand in hand. SE should make the reward worthwhile, not something that is completely forgettable in a couple of updates. Who wants to spend millions on crafting/gathering gear when in 3-6 months that gear is completely obsolete? Who wants to jump into the hardest raid when the next tome gear will be even better than the previous level raid gear? There should be more tiers of play where players can feel there's always something that can make their character at least a little bit better (give them a sense of progression). I'm not even a hardcore raider btw. I haven't even done A1S. But maybe I would be more interested if the alternative route wasn't so much easier.

- Make crafting useful for more than just vanity. I would love to fight in a decent set of armor that I actually made. Maybe the tiers of play would be something like: tome gear, crafted gear (only better if melded, just like what was done for crafting/gathering and scrips), raid gear.

- More creative ways to get us to do old content.. For example, SE could add a weekly quest for clearing Coil T1-5, 6-9, etc. This quest could give a Tier 5 materia or a Tier 3 FC Action, for example.

Anyway, I'm mostly fine with the state of the game, but SE really should have the guts to shake things up a bit.

[Popotolord]

FFXIV is the 2nd one

edit : lol just noticed the name "lightning express" hahaha !!!

Oh god, I'm saving this one.

[Kosmos992k]

Of course they reuse core ride mechanics within the parks, but they were the ones to invent the majority of them in the first place. Before Disney, who used motion simulators?

The Funtastic World of Hanna-Barbera at Universal Studios was the 'first' and Universal is credited with inventing 'motion theater', although Disney's attraction opened first, Universal created theirs before Disney. Before that there was also a Space Shuttle Simulator ride in the CN tower that opened in 1985....

Actually I have to say that there were earlier instances of this technology with arcade games that used motion such as the Deluxe version of Hang On where you 'ride' the bike and as you lean the bike it leans in game with the game screen being mounted on the faux handle-bars. Let's not even count the motion simulation used by aviation for decades.

The point I am making is that Disney didn't so much invent these things, but rather they collected existing concepts and technology, expanded upon it to some degree, and packaged it expertly. I'm not saying Disney did nothing, but I can't accept this thought that Disney somehow is the sole inventing influence on such technologies. Hell, we could point to the Movie Metropolis for a prior art example of a mechanical figure that many people would be familiar with today.

The packaging of Disney is in many ways more significant than the underlying technology or concept. That packaging leans heavily on Disney's treasure trove of beloved animated characters, and by creating a 'world' for their characters to inhabit inside heir parks, Disney created a package that is unlike any other. But technologically and historically, they were not the first to these things, they may be the most successful and visible example today however.

BTW, animatronics can easily trace it's roots to things like the various clockwork automatons that exist including Peny Arcade fortune tellers (animated figures in a box....) and even Karakuri puppets from the 17th/18th/19th century in Japan. There were many interactive experiences and other attractions at county Fairs and carnivals that have been around for a very, very long time. Seaside attractions on piers that use many of these same concepts down the ages too, a lot of which began in the Victorian age - look at Coney Island for numerous examples from that initial amusement park era.

As ever it's tru-ish to say that there is nothing new in the world, only old things given a new coat of paint.

The point of all this being that MMORPGs are at their heart nothing more than a technological way of implementing Role Playing games like D&D, GURPS, and other dice based RPGs with character sheets and fantasy settings. Instead of sitting together in a room with the game master behind his/her screens, we gather online and the game master is replaced by the game server. All the concepts used in MMORPGs are simply logical extensions and developments of concepts from those table top games. I honestly don't think it fair to claim FFXIV is a clone of WoW or anything else. Unless we first with to start tracing the lineage of all MMORPGs back to table top games such as D&D, GURPS, MERP or AD&D, we should stop trying to use other games as a benchmark, or claim cloning when all MMORPGs share a basic common ancestor.

<images>
FFXIV is the 2nd one

Except that people keep charging FFXIV with being a clone of so many other things, so wouldn't it be more accurate to use two pictures of the first roller coaster, but recolor the second one? :P

[Preypacer]

Ho boy, you've opened a can of worms now, I could write you several essays... I'll try to keep this short though;.

lol I was thinking something similar when I read that request; "Oh boy, where to begin?"

You hit on a lot of the points, kinda skimmed over some, but I understand you were trying to keep it as brief as possible.

I'd like to add to your points, though, which I happen to agree with wholeheartedly... To wit: There's a lot of things XIV could "learn" from FFXI.

One of the core things Yoshi-P could do well to glean from XI is to drop this fear he seems to have of "stressing the players out" over things that would only make the game more interesting, give it more depth and, heaven forbid, might actually keep more people engaged for much longer, without feeling like they've run out of things to do.

He's alluded to this a number of times, in response to queries about decisions he made for ARR's design. Two that jump out at me were getting rid of the elemental wheel, where he felt having to remember what skills to use in a given situation might stress players out. Another was making fishing a more involved activity, which he felt would stress people out due to "too much button pushing". I'm pretty sure not having more involved/interesting gear stats was attributed to that. I've heard him use the term "stressing people out" as his explanation for a number of things besides that as well.

Seriously, who the hell would find a concept like "fire is in opposition to water" stressful to apply in any of a number of possible scenarios where such a thing would be relevant? I wish he'd get off that kick, because it's resulted in a very subtractive approach to XIV's design, where some otherwise very interesting content will never see the light of day.

I think Yoshi-P is way off point with this, and does not seem to realize or appreciate how adaptable players really are - especially when the challenge, and the payoff, are worthwhile. If they don't "get it" outright, players will figure it out. They'll wrap their brains around it. They'll experiment, they'll talk, they'll theory-craft, they'll share information and work it out 'til they understand it. You know, the kind of thing a game community does when there's reason/opportunity to, because everything isn't spelled out for them.

Two things in FFXI that remained a big ? to many for a long time was whether facing a given direction while Synthing (crafting) had an impact on your results, and how to get the best/most valuable yields from gardening in your mog house. Those two things were discussed, theorized and debated for years, and SE never gave a direct yes or no answer. I'm still not entirely sure players have fully figured it out in either case lol. Though, maybe they have by now.

Another thing I wish they'd step up is the implementation of things that should and certainly could be far more epic than they are.

As one example... Artifact Gear. Obtaining AF gear is, or should be, an important milestone. It's your Job's definitive gear. Instead? It's outdated before you even get it, in the name of break-neck vertical progression... "Gotta keep increasing that ilevel requirement! Gotta keep that carrot well ahead of the players! It's the only way we know how to keep people playing!"

On the surface, both could be boiled down to "do some quests, open some coffers, and you get your set". That would be an accurate explanation of XIV's, as it really isn't much more than that. Do a couple short, simple quests, open up a coffer or two, and voila... you get not just one, but two full AF sets. You can do the entire thing in a couple hours, tops. Gee, how incredibly epic >.>.

Meanwhile, in FFXI, getting a single coffer could be more challenging than XIV's entire AF quest chain. In XI, you're sent into some very hostile territory, where you could easily be killed if you didn't have access to invisibility and silence, or got aggro you couldn't deal with. You had to find your way through the zone, to find a coffer that could spawn randomly in any of several locations. Oh yeah, and you needed a key to open it, which required you to kill mobs - which (at least in the 75 cap days) typically required you to have at least one other person there to help. In the end, finding that coffer, opening it and receiving that piece of AF gear felt freaking awesome, and it was a significant upgrade. I remember getting my DRG AF set in XI like it was yesterday, and it was over 10 years ago, such was the challenge and reward of completing it. In XIV on the other hand, I don't even remember where the pieces were or what I had to do for them, it was that forgettable - and this was only a couple months ago.

FFXI did a fantastic job of setting long-term goals in front of players. In XI, you had unlocking Subjobs at level 18, getting to Jeuno and getting your chocobo license at level 20, Rank 5 and unlocking Airships, getting access to Khazam, finishing your AF, acquiring rare/powerful equipment, beating Maat, advanced jobs were actually challenging to unlock (mostly, a couple were really easy), Sky Access, Sea Access. Getting a chocobo license was a huge upgrade, as you ran everywhere on foot prior to that. Similarly, unlocking Airship access was a huge upgrade over Chocobos. Getting your outpost warps, getting your Crags and crystals in each region. And on and on and on. These were all major milestones for a character, and they took you from level 1 clear up to level cap, and they had far more significance in XI than they do in XIV. In FFXIV, the major goal is basically reaching the next major ilevel. That's pretty much it. Everything else is either not nearly as impactful, or is quickly obsolesced.

Things had much more depth and thought put into them in XI. They demanded a lot more of the player, but the players rose to the occasion, because the rewards were that much more worthwhile, and because the designers weren't afraid of "stressing the players out".

Even something as mundane just traversing the world could yield some epic stories. Ask anyone who played XI about their first journey to Jeuno. Ask them what it was like being a level 20-ish character running through unfamiliar territory, while weaving around mobs upwards of 20 or 30 levels higher than them, and surviving. Ask them how great and relieving it was to safely pass through the gate to Jeuno, and on to safety (and their chocobo license, which was a huge achievement in itself). I can almost guarantee you they'll remember it, likely in great detail. I know I remember mine like it was yesterday, and again, it was over 10 years ago at this point. FFXI's world was genuinely dangerous. If you didn't know how different mobs aggroed, and how to avoid them, you were in for a rough time. It could be incredibly daunting, but it was awesome and rewarding. I used have a lot of fun with "mob dodging", without sneak or invis, because it was always a challenge to pull off.

Riding the ferry from one port to another could be terrifying to someone caught on deck when a Sea Horror, or some skeletons decided to pay a visit. Of course, there was also good reason to ride the ferry, because there's some good fishing there, and many people would get on the ferry and just ride it back and forth while they did so. Aside from being a good time to get up, stretch the legs, get some food, etc, it could be very lucrative for fishers.

FFXIV offers almost nothing like that, because everything is so fleeting, or safe. People are hesitant to put too much effort or time into something, because it's likely that either something better will become available soon after, or SE will nerf the requirements to get it, so it's better to just wait it out. That was not the case in XI, because a piece of gear you acquired could last you many levels. I remember using Battle Gloves - a level 14 piece of gear - for a long time, because the item was that good. Or getting the Ju Jitsu Gi, and using the hell out of that. In FFXIV? Both of those items could probably be replaced within days, probably as reward for a simple quest, making the effort to get them seem not worthwhile.

Whatever it is they would have to do with XIV, even if it's not drawing inspiration from XI, I just wish Yoshi-P would do *something* to bring more "oomph" to this game. Bring more depth and mystery and intrigue to it. Make things that are supposed to be epic, actually *feel* epic and worthwhile. And no, I don't mean just by relying solely on savage level raids (which most people won't do), or grinding for hours on old content. That's not epic content. It's busy work.

So many great things they can do with this game, to give it more depth, more challenge and long-term objectives. People would have more to sink their teeth into, and wouldn't be bored for weeks/months between updates, because just about everything can be done in days, if not hours. 3.1's story was finished within a few hours. Seriously?

Yoshi-P and co. have proven capable of throwing minions, mounts, glamour items and dances at us; there's certainly no shortage of toys and candy being tossed around. How about showing us they can provide us a deeper, more engaging experience as well? Get inspired. Get creative.

I suppose before that can happen, Yoshi-P has to exorcise this obsession he has with playing it safe, for fear of "stressing people out".

[Reaperking386]

I think the major issue with this is not the fact that we have a lack of content, but Diadem was such a disaster that huge piece of content was pushed aside by us gamers. We asked SE to take bigger risks and they did with Diadem,but risks are gambles and SE lost on that. I believe Yoshi is aware of the lacking content and is working on improving Diadem to make it enjoyable as well as adding alot of other content for 3.2. This game is still very new and require fine tuning. Give it time and if you can no longer then play another game until you feel like FF14 is up to your standards.