FFXIV is in a Prime Position to Make Some Drastic Changes

[BlatantPyre]

I want to use an example of why I think this topic is important: Red Mage.

We all want it. Yoshida even teased us with the idea this past Rising. After thinking about it though, I wonder how it could even function in this current system...

Now, I've thought long and hard about how it *could* work, but I want to focus on one point, that Red Mage is really supposed to be a swiss-army knife class, say like Druid in WoW, and such like it. But such a class only works in a system with horizontal progression, where you can modify/self-personalize your job's path. We don't currently have that...how's that going to work?!

[Roth_Trailfinder]

I want to use an example of why I think this topic is important: Red Mage.

We all want it. Yoshida even teased us with the idea this past Rising. After thinking about it though, I wonder how it could even function in this current system...

Now, I've thought long and hard about how it *could* work, but I want to focus on one point, that Red Mage is really supposed to be a swiss-army knife class, say like Druid in WoW, and such like it. But such a class only works in a system with horizontal progression, where you can modify/self-personalize your job's path. We don't currently have that...how's that going to work?!

RDM could work, in terms of being a blend of WHM and BLM, able to use medium weight weapons and armor. Jack of all trades, yes - but MASTER OF NONE.

It would not be able to heal as well as a Healing job. It would not tank as well as a Tank job. ITs DPS output would be comparable to, but lower than, a Bard.

The thing that makes it generally unworkable, in my mind, is not a question of what abilities it has. Its not a question of how well a hybrid job works in vertical progression (it can work very well). Rather, it's a question of queues.

What would a RDM queue as? Healer? Who would want a RDM healer over a WHM, SCH, or AST, when those three are designed to be better healers? Tank? Similar question with PLD, DRK, WAR. DPS? Lol?

Vertical progression is a good thing. Horizontal, not so much. The main issue I see is the difference between acquisition rate and provision rate. How quickly is new power offered to the player base, compared to how quickly does the player base seize that new power?

FF14 is one of the fastest games I've ever played, in terms of gaining player power. That is both a blessing and a curse. It helps keep people interested (no one wants to grind for 10 hours only to gain 4% of a level) but it gets people to max, bored and gone, that much faster. The only real solution is to add more power at a higher rate, to try to keep people interested. This whole thing about "horizontal progression" (as far as I can tell) is less about providing options than it is about sneaking in more player power when SE is determined to adhere to its own schedule that gets people bored. A new ability is going to add to that job's power in some way shape or form - give people a choice of two such ways and they will invariably choose the one that offers the greatest vertical advantage.

[BlatantPyre]

RDM could work <...> Jack of all trades, yes - but MASTER OF NONE <...> The thing that makes it generally unworkable, in my mind, is not a question of what abilities it has <...> it's a question of queues.

What would a RDM queue as? Healer? <...> Tank? <...> DPS?

Vertical progression is a good thing. Horizontal, not so much. <and then everything else he said that was spot on>

You read my mind, man.

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system, how would the queue work as it is now? I thought breaking the vertical progression would begin to help address it, but I've since changed my mind. I had a thought about having it queue untethered to any specific role, then as the roles were gradually filled it would close the gap...i don't know now though, maybe. It would always either be tank or heals, and honestly I didn't really see RDM as a tank, more in line with DRG (access to better armor than other dps) but with the capacity to be a healer. I ALSO thought about it having some Mystic Knight mechanics...you know, attributing BLM spells into a rune blade, allowing for elemental damage on top of harder hits...and give me chain spell...

Anyway, I'm excited for it nonetheless, I was just pondering how it would fit in.

[Shurrikhan]

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system, how would the queue work as it is now? I thought breaking the vertical progression would begin to help address it, but I've since changed my mind. I had a thought about having it queue untethered to any specific role, then as the roles were gradually filled it would close the gap...i don't know now though, maybe. It would always either be tank or heals, and honestly I didn't really see RDM as a tank, more in line with DRG (access to better armor than other dps) but with the capacity to be a healer. I ALSO thought about it having some Mystic Knight mechanics...you know, attributing BLM spells into a rune blade, allowing for elemental damage on top of harder hits...and give me chain spell...

Anyway, I'm excited for it nonetheless, I was just pondering how it would fit in.

Yeah, this is what gets me, too, about RDM, though I'm not sure it'd be such a big deal insofar as how it would queue--more, that it would have to pick one role to queue as, and that most parties would have to hinge its use on a particular use rather than making the best use of all three combined roles. Ideally, I'd want it to be something outside the role system, but in reality it's more likely going to be able to qualify for only one role at a time, likely gearing for healer, tank, or dps, and queueing accordingly. That said, even without gearing for the particular role, it could easily just pick a role in the meaning not of limited capability (after all, our tanks and healers can both DPS significantly enough) but of intention to fulfilling its obligations (keeping the party alive when healing, holding aggro as necessary when tanking), noting that whatever else they might contribute they can and most likely will be kicked if they do not perform the role they signed on as, just like any bad role-locked tank, healer, or dps.

[RiceisNice]

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system....

There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though. Everyone dork knight as a dps job, but it seems to fit the tanking role jsut fine, provided they have been given the tools for such. FFXIV has done pretty well as far as taking concepts from the FF series and molding it into something that works in an MMO setting, BLMwith the astral/umbral mechanic for example. It clearly doesnt play as a traditional FF blackmage, but at hte same time draws from it's concept of having a wide pletioria of elemental spells and make it work without the elemental wheel (which is typically an extremely limiting factor in any MMO game)

[Shurrikhan]

There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though. Everyone dork knight as a dps job, but it seems to fit the tanking role just fine, provided they have been given the tools for such. FFXIV has done pretty well as far as taking concepts from the FF series and molding it into something that works in an MMO setting, BLM with the astral/umbral mechanic for example. It clearly doesnt play as a traditional FF blackmage, but at the same time draws from it's concept of having a wide plethora of elemental spells and make it work without the elemental wheel (which is typically an extremely limiting factor in any MMO game)

I guess what's being mused about then isn't so much a class that has things in common with the RDM, but the iconic hybrid niche that RDM has happened to fill.

We basically can get another class with weapon enchants, mixed melee and spell-casting, and maybe even a single-target Refresh, any day. My tank can wear a shiny red coat and hat. Monks have the Red Thief set which looks pretty close... But a real hybrid, that's the real rarity that I think a lot of people would like to see pulled off, though preferably with one the best dressed and most iconic jobs to meet that description.

[Alahra]

There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though.

Indeed--honestly, RDM's identity isn't particularly concrete across the various FF titles. While it always has melee, black magic, and white magic, there have only been a couple of the titles where it's actually been notably good at all three things at once. In terms of hitting all three of those bases, I suspect tank is actually the easiest fit for FFXIV's current paradigm (black magic for ranged/AoE threat stuff, white magic for self-heals/defensive cooldowns [like Phalanx/Stoneskin/Blink from FFXI], and then tanks are naturally in melee). But they could just as easily minimize the melee aspect, too, and make it a healer, since they already have both offensive and defensive magic (healer doesn't even necessarily preclude melee, but given their penchant for raid mechanics that make healers stay away from the group, that might get kind of messy).

What I don't see RDM being is a straight DPS, though (unless perhaps they do some sort of split-job thing like SMN/SCH--but that's highly unlikely).

[Shyle]

What I don't see RDM being is a straight DPS, though (unless perhaps they do some sort of split-job thing like SMN/SCH--but that's highly unlikely).

Could be a melee dps/support (using spells like enfire etc to not only buff their own weapon but the melee party members as well). Basically using TP and MP skills for dps with some support added?

[Alahra]

Could be a melee dps/support (using spells like enfire etc to not only buff their own weapon but the melee party members as well). Basically using TP and MP skills for dps with some support added?

If they're DPS, they'd definitely be more in the support avenue (like BRD and MCH I'd wager), that's for sure.

[BlatantPyre]

As far as RDM goes...<sigh> everything you guys have said makes sense. It's just that, the big reason I've always been into the job is because of the versatility of it. If that goes away, it won't really be RDM to me. I agree that FFXIV has done a good job of redefining many of the old jobs into something not only useful in an MMO, but that expands on what those jobs have been by introducing new mechanics. I wouldn't mind a similar treatment to RDM...but it has to still be RDM. Look at BRD. Of all the jobs, it's the least like it's original counter-part (heck, it's pretty much in truth Ranger). And which job do we hear the most complaints about? I do mean the most, btw, I know there's complaints across the board...

I don't really care (much) (..too much...) (...maybe a bit) about what role/roles the job will be. I just want it to be able to have some utility and versatility in a fight, is all...