Yay or Nay : Silence/stun abilties that have potency attached

[SlyRoyale]

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Mug also provides two different effects depending on the venom active when used. Kiss of the Viper provides a steal effect if it's part of the finishing blow, while Wasp makes it a self-heal. Jugulate's effects also change from stun to silence based on venom, too. Having potencies on these attacks makes it so that when their effects aren't needed, they can be freely used for a DPS increase. That's a good thing. If the effects are needed, they should be saved in situations where they are needed. What should be done is designing content that makes it better to save those cooldowns for their effects. I would like to use Shadowbind more frequently, but the only time I can recall it seeing any action was during the second boss in Brayflox NM and T7 Renauds, but the former is a niche scenario and the latter was handled far better by SMNs/SCHs.

[RiceisNice]

Mug also provides two different effects depending on the venom active when used. Kiss of the Viper provides a steal effect if it's part of the finishing blow, while Wasp makes it a self-heal...

The steal effect is built into it, doesn't require viper, nor does it require the finishing blow. And even then, it hardly ever works and there aren't that many ninjas that would care to admit the';d use mug for the extra loot or even know how exactly it works (such as it not requiring the finishing blow). It's also an extreme outliner that mug's healing can save lives, considering that it's 70 potency (lower than second wind), nor do I know of any ninjas that'd actually put aside mug for the healing since it's so minuscule.

they can be freely used for a DPS increase. That's a good thing.

I wouldn't agree that it's a good thing if it's a straight up damage skill that requires no thought or otherwise a mental tax to use or align with cooldowns or other abilties. That's just button bloating and makes for less room to add in more skills in the future if we have to keep everything we learn on our tool bars. (especially if they are going to continue with raising the level cap and adding more)

[SlyRoyale]

The steal effect is built into it, doesn't require viper, nor does it require the finishing blow. And even then, it hardly ever works and there aren't that many ninjas that would care to admit the';d use mug for the extra loot or even know how exactly it works (such as it not requiring the finishing blow). It's also an extreme outliner that mug's healing can save lives, considering that it's 70 potency (lower than second wind), nor do I know of any ninjas that'd actually put aside mug for the healing since it's so minuscule.

Yet the effects are there, despite being so miniscule. That is a fact. It may not be much, but it's still something little extra.

I wouldn't agree that it's a good thing if it's a straight up damage skill that requires no thought or otherwise a mental tax to use or align with cooldowns or other abilties. That's just button bloating and makes for less room to add in more skills in the future if we have to keep everything we learn on our tool bars. (especially if they are going to continue with raising the level cap and adding more)

Is it really that mentally taxing? Sure, abilities like that could use a bit of touch-up to be more engaging and interesting, but it's not hard to determine whether it's best to tie it in with other cooldowns, or use it whenever it's available. It provides options, which is what I'm trying to get across.

For abilities that have special effects and attack potencies, I say yay to keeping both. They can either be used for extra DPS, or can be held on to for making the most of those effects when it matters. I'd rather have that choice of discretion instead of potentially over-simplifying toolkits in a game that could stand to be a bit more dynamic.

[LegoTechnic]

Leave the potency on moves like Head Graze. It's tempting to just throw instants like these out willy-nilly when they're up, and having a fight actually force you to refrain and break your bad habit is a special kind of interesting.

[Viviza]

I think them dealing damage is fine. The more decision-making put into these sorts of abilities, the better. Anything that disrupts "use on cooldown" is fine in my book.

If you're using them on cooldown you're probably going to make the target immune quickly. Most of the time this is okay. The times it is not okay should be the times that a DPS is mindful enough to save those skills for the appropriate moment. Mechanics like not making Ifrit immune to stun (at least at release) were meaningful and spoke to the skill of the DPS on target.

[randysquirrel]

Conflicted... on the one hand I think maybe they should only have the effect and no potency, so aren't just shoved into rotation for dps, but then again, it's a dangerous move to dumb down an ability just because the playerbase is too stupid to use their moves correctly (ie NOT build up resistance on a mob when a stun, etc is required)

[AlvaroVanagandr]

Things like mob status resistance aren't as much of a test of skill as much as it was a test of who-was-already-familiar with the fight. DPS go into any battle looking to reduce the mobs' HP to 0% as quickly as possible. Those who look it up on YouTube, or have done the battle before are rewarded with a smoother fight by not building necessary status resistance. Those who don't look it up go into the fight looking to maximize their damage, unknowingly build resistance and are degraded because: they were trying to do their job.

A test of skill would be more like: a DPS who had never seen the fight before, maximizes their dps and uses a debuff when they might make a difference. Instead of: a DPS who had never seen a fight before, while attempting to maximize their dps, build status resistance and wipes the party. It seems like it's only favoring players who look up the fight first.

[randysquirrel]

snip

Amount of times I've tanked AV, asked people not to build resistance on the coincounter, so I can stun the swing... resistance still built.
Only anecdotal evidence I know, but I don't buy the only reason people do it is ignorance of the fight, because even if you tell them, they still don't/can't adapt

[RiceisNice]

It provides options, which is what I'm trying to get across.

For abilities that have special effects and attack potencies, I say yay to keeping both. They can either be used for extra DPS, or can be held on to for making the most of those effects when it matters. I'd rather have that choice of discretion instead of potentially over-simplifying toolkits in a game that could stand to be a bit more dynamic.

That's what I'm saying. Adding skills that give nothing but potency doesn't make it any more dynamic or necessarily options, it's an extra button to be pressed as soon as it comes up, especially <1m ones that allows it to align with cooldowns like B4B. When you have encounters that don't require these niches, you end up having more of these abilities because their potency is attached to it. I don't want to (and I don't need to, especially if I'm killing for skill slots) keep skills like shadow bind on my tab if I don't need it for this particular fight (and at the same time, you don't want all fights to require the same or excessive amount of silencing, unless they give every job some form of it), but I also don't want more abilities like gauss round (and by extension, skills that only serve to do extra damage without any synergy, such as low-cooldown stuns and silences when the encounter does not require it) for it at all that serve nothing but to button bloat, especially if they intend on adding more skills in the future.

Is it not the same effect if you have a skill that can silence, regardless or not that it does damage if you have it available for silence? To me the choice of discretion simply isn't there frequently enough to justify putting damage on it to be used off cooldown (which has to do with the fight design, but again you don't necessarily want all fights to be like this to encourage bringing specific jobs over others), and the rare occurrence that you have to save it otherwise.

Conflicted... on the one hand I think maybe they should only have the effect and no potency, so aren't just shoved into rotation for dps, but then again, it's a dangerous move to dumb down an ability just because the playerbase is too stupid to use their moves correctly (ie NOT build up resistance on a mob when a stun, etc is required)

Cases like this would also apply to skills like spineshatter and shoulder tackle, which not only deal damage and stun, but act as a gap closer for a melee job. Having to put off the stun resistance entirely nullifies this ability for it's purpose of being a gap closer (especially to jump on sahagin adds and coin counter after a sweep)

[Leonus]

People do realize that one of the reasons things were played down I because stuff like this happened in first coil, people complained, and SE stopped designing fights around enfeebling mechanics, right? It was hard for the majority of people/groups.