Summoner Demystified: A Guide for Beginners

[FeliAiko]

The *only* time I say to let one's DoTs fall off is when one is in DWT.

You shouldn't be losing DoTs when you're in DWT in the first place, because that's where Tri-Disaster comes in. On a basic level it goes: DWT > Tri-D > Ruin III (until 3s) > Deathflare, with at least one Fester during the Ruin III phase.

This is because I myself let this happen (thanks to Ruin III hyperfocus),

Which is why you use Tri-Disaster as soon as you enter DWT. Then you don't have to worry about DoTs until long after DWT ends.

and I add to *immediately* refresh DoTs when DWT ends.

Which you avoid by doing what I mentioned above. A much easier and logical method.

I'm partly justified by theorycraft, since last I heard saying casting anything besides Ruin III or Bio II in DWT is an overall potency loss.

Casting any GCD, yes (skills like Blizz II, during AOE rotations, during DWT are the exception though). Your method of casting DoTs after DWT is worse, since it takes no advantage of the boost in damage DWT gives.

And I still pull good-enough numbers despite this (yes, they are not *ideal* numbers, but ideal *is not the intention.*)

Good enough for what? 2 endgame dungeons that by now people are overgearing by 40-50 ilvls?

Also meeting ideal numbers isn't the issue here. If a guide that's meant to be for beginners doesn't even teach or promote the basics properly, then it provides no meaningful purpose other than placating players to be ineffective.

I disagree. The 'optimal' rotation requires split-second timing that several, including myself, will simply lack the reflexes to pull off.

Split-second timing? You get 2.5 seconds before being able to hit buttons. As a caster you get cast times in the midst of that. You have a lot more time in this game to do things than you think - even more so considering how it's built with console/controller players in mind. As far as reflexes, it all about practice and repetition until it becomes muscle memory. Before you know it, you become able to hit buttons without thinking about it since it's all mostly a script anyway.

While there are things we can gain from the rotation (such as Painflare use in single-target to build up DWT), that's the sort of thing to be worked in once the basics are down.

Dealing with DWT itself is part of the basics, so what makes you think building up to it isn't going to be part of the basics too? I mean, do you expect beginners to just ignore using DWT while doing content until they feel 'ready' to start 'working' towards using it?

The key is to *build-up* to that point. You can't start working towards the 'optimal' rotation without a basic foundation to work from first.

You build up to that point through leveling the class from 1-60, learning/applying the skills as you get them, then by learning the rotation. Not by telling yourself the rotation is some kind of top-level venture you have to 'prepare' yourself for by doing other inefficient methods at level 60 instead. I mean, looking at your rotation:

Rouse+Spur+Enkindle->Raging Strikes->(Bio II->Miasma->Bio)/(Tri-Disaster)->Contagion->Fester->Swiftcast+Shadowflare->Ruin II filler.

How does this help build a beginner towards weaving? You're telling them to use 4 oGCDs back-to-back (6 if you include Tri-Disaster+Contagion), with nothing in between. There's nothing in here that will help them if they decide to transition to the so-called 'advanced' rotation where it's necessary to weave in Rouse, Spur, etc. because up to that point they've been conditioned to just spam them one after the other.

Hardly a foundation for them to get better, when they'll have to practically forget everything they learned and start from 0.

In many ways, the guide reflects how I learned to SMN and my own progression. I fully admit I am not the best SMN, and it is going to be a while yet before I can pull off 'optimal' rotations thanks to less-then-ideal reflexes.

Which is why I said you need to become more 'seasoned' on SMN before making such a guide, despite your well-meaning intentions. Too much bad advice and misinformation currently.

But I pull *good enough* numbers, enough to burn through mobs quickly in Expert dungeons like a SMN should, and meet the DPS checks on Alex NM.

Oh for sure that initial burst is going to be high, what with you front-loading all your buffs before your first DoT lands. Still inefficient as far as a guide goes, though. It's less a 'this is how you play SMN', but rather a 'this is the shortcuts I use when playing SMN'.

As I've said, this is the guide I wished I had when first learning SMN, and its ultimately aimed at more 'casual' players.

This game is already catered to 'casuals' in a big way as it is. No need to encourage them to play classes inefficiently at end game (yes, Expert Roulette dungeons are also endgame, not just Alex) instead of putting in some effort.

I consider myself hardcore, and rest assured I'm constantly working on my rotation. But for the *vast majority* of the player base not looking to make Alex Savage's strict DPS checks, the information in this guide will get them by just fine.

Has nothing to do with Savage, it's about simply learning to play the class properly. This is a problem I have with players in this game; the idea that because it's not Savage, it means they can just be lazy, inefficient, doing whatever because 'hey, at least I'm getting by through the content so it's good enough!'. Then the moment they reach a challenge that's not raid content, because they're so used to doing the bare minimum required, it's outcries for nerfs and buffs so they can continue on slacking.

We should be encouraging players to make an effort to play classes properly, to make them prepared for whatever they encounter. Not telling them "is this class too hard for you? Well here's a piss-easy way to play it! It'll get you through non-raid content no problem!".

[cgbspender]

Fortunately, not optimal doesn't mean terrible. Playing one job isn't just black or white.

[FeliAiko]

Fortunately, not optimal doesn't mean terrible. Playing one job isn't just black or white.

All paths don't lead to the same result here. The reason you see the rotations for jobs pushed as being the 'correct' one is because people actually went through the effort on doing the research, the maths, and testing in content. It's meant for all players wanting to play the job to learn, so then they're able to perform to at least a decent enough standard. The rotation in itself is not what makes you a top player - it goes beyond that - but it puts them on a good foundation to build on. That's the starting point, not shuffling skills around and then trying to pass it off as a legitimate alternative whilst being ignorant on the basics.

As I said before:

If a guide that's meant to be for beginners doesn't even teach or promote the basics properly, then it provides no meaningful purpose other than placating players to be ineffective.

[pushin_tin]

OP, your heart is in the right place, but as people have already stated, promoting an inefficient playstyle for players will hurt them in the long run. Practice makes PERMANENT, not perfect. The nice thing about SMN compared to BLM is that it is actually very forgiving of mistakes - your DPS won't tank from one small error. There is no good reason not to strive to use established rotations that people like Sleigh have spent time theorycrafting for the community, even if there are some growing pains.

I completely acknowledge your special condition and why your playstyle works for you. Just be aware of the responsibility and impact you take on when you create a guide on how to play a class.

[Alisa180]

Yeesh, maybe I should take down the rotations, if they are going to cause so much controversy. What I don't understand is, if they meet non-AS DPS checks, what's the actual problem here?

I'm reminded of a quote said by Yoshida himself a while back (translated here):

For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

I'm assuming 'basic' DPS isn't even 'optimal' DPS. And if you are at the appropriate item level, you don't even need that. There's much more flexibility to DPSing then some are willing to admit. As cgbspender says, not optimal does not mean terrible.

You guys also seem to be missing the point that the basic rotations are meant as a *starting point.* I fully expect at least half of the players, likely more, who read this guide to go on to improve their DPS numbers and bring their rotation closer to 'optimal.' The overall goal is to reduce the number of players who come into a dungeon only parsing something like 200-300 DPS or less, even if only by a little. Some of them, I fully acknowledge, will be lazy and only stop at the 'basic' rotation because its easier. *But at least they will still make the DPS checks.*

That comes with the caveat, of course, that they are also doing mechanics correctly. But that's a whole 'nother story, and somewhat beyond the purpose of the guide.

This is also why I promote simplicity in the 'basic' rotations. Players who would shut down at the sight of the 'optimal' rotations will likely find my 'basic' rotation a much easier pill to swallow at first. Demanding 'You must be working to perfection at all times!' is counter-productive to the overall goal. Many players don't want to work towards 'perfect.' That's fine. We should allow for that. But on the flipside, a certain level of competency must be expected of them. This guide is about trying to establish that base level, nowhere near 'optimal' but certainly 'good enough.'

I am not promoting being ineffective. It seems I'll have to do some tweaking to get it through, but I'm trying to stress one should look to improve once they are 'good enough.' If at all possible, that is. But I am allowing for being ineffective. There's a difference, because I'm willing to bet not even the vast majority of players (including myself, possibly) will have the skill or talent for 'optimal' rotations. In fact, in certain cases (such as my own, for a while) they'll actually do *more* DPS using the 'basic' rotation I presented then attempting the 'optimal' rotation, simply because the 'basic' rotation is more forgiving of slip-ups and mistakes by virtue of not being a 'second-by-second' script.

[pushin_tin]

What I don't understand is, if they meet the DPS checks, what's the overall problem here?

Let's say SE does that calculation and determines the sum of the basic DPS four DPS and the tanks do in an encounter comes out to 100 DPS (just to use an easy number). They then take this number and cut it as mentioned, so the raid requires 85 group DPS minimum to clear.

It is safe to assume that the established theorycrafted rotations and playstyles will result in close to 100% of your Job's theoretical maximum DPS. Obviously in a raid environment, this is an unrealistic number, but we can still consider it the DPS ceiling. So let's visualize what we have so far:

Theoretical maximum DPS (approx. 100 for this encounter, and only approachable with theorycrafted rotations and playstyles)
P
P
P
<-----Passing zone
P
P
P
Minimum DPS required for encounter (85, in this case).
F
F
F
<------Failing zone
F
F
F

With everyone in your party using established rotations, your party's damage ceiling is virtually at the top of that chart. Those six Ps under it can be considered breathing room to allow for human error and mistakes.

However, if you (personally) are using a suboptimal rotation, your party's damage ceiling now goes down, say, to the first P. Now you only have five Ps of breathing room. But wait, everyone in your party read your guide and is using a suboptimal rotation. Now, your party's damage ceiling is only a P or two above the minimum required to pass the encounter. If someone dies, if someone lags, if someone has a brain fart, if someone fat fingers during a three-step combo, if anything happens, you go into the F zone.

At best (the first half of the preceding paragraph), the player is intentionally lowering their groups damage ceiling by using an "easy" rotation, therefore lowering the margin of error and placing more stress on the other party members. At worst (second half), everyone has the "I only need 85%" mentality and therefore places the group in a precarious situation.

The "I only need 85%" mindset only works if a minimal amount of people in the group has it. Can you truly believe such a mindset can then be called a good one?

[Alisa180]

Let's say SE does that calculation and determines the sum of the basic DPS four DPS and the tanks do in an encounter comes out to 100 DPS (just to use an easy number). They then take this number and cut it as mentioned, so the raid requires 85 group DPS minimum to clear.

It is safe to assume that the established theorycrafted rotations and playstyles will result in close to 100% of your Job's theoretical maximum DPS. Obviously in a raid environment, this is an unrealistic number, but we can still consider it the DPS ceiling. So let's visualize what we have so far:

Theoretical maximum DPS (approx. 100 for this encounter, and only approachable with theorycrafted rotations and playstyles)

Let me stop you right there. I literally just said that it was *highly unlikely* that the 'theorectical maximum' is the 'base DPS' the devs use. Remember, this is the same team taken off guard by Healer DPS (which they are on record as not required). Something like, say, using Raging Strikes within DWT is something I have sincere doubts they included in their calculations.

Here's how I see it: An optimal rotation provides DPS *above* the 'base' DPS expected by the devs. So, to use a version of your visualization:

P-'Optimal' DPS (In this case, assumed to be between 120% and 130% of the 'base' DPS assumed by the devs.)
P
P
P-'Base' DPS (100, less then 'optimal)
P
P
<-----Passing zone
P
P
P
Minimum DPS required for encounter (85, in this case).
F
F
F
<------Failing zone
F
F
F

In this example, you still have plenty of breathing room for mistakes, so long as everyone is at least making the 'base' DPS. Optimal provides *more* breathing room, naturally, but its not *strictly nesscary.* Which means you can use a less then optimal rotation and still have sufficient room for human error. This is how I see it.

(P.S. It's assumed that if you are doing Savage you are naturally looking to do more then the 'base' rotation. I even specifically say the rotation is not meant to meet Alex Savage's DPS checks.)

[cgbspender]

I don t think the introduction of rotations can hurt anyone. As the OP stated right away, the purpose of the guide is not to create a perfect dps - do they exist at all ?- but to give information for whoever wants to master the basics, the intermediate level AND eventually an advanced level of play, for which he did say that there are other guides out there which will fill the blanks.

[Solarra]

Thanks for taking the time to write this OP. You have a nice writing style and the guide is easy to understand. I hope you don't get discouraged and continue to work on it.

FeliAiko: I've been reading through your comments and I can see you have some concerns.
I agree that if someone learns the wrong way to do something, having to unlearn that and then learn the correct way is going to present a huge hurdle. If the mistake is engrained deeply enough it can be something that will persist for a long time. I do hope you will continue helping the OP in a positive way and suggesting improvements.

A lot of guides are written by and for experienced players; for a beginner, especially one without much mmo experience, they can be very hard to follow. What's obvious and easy to a highly skilled, experienced player isn't always obvious and easy for the rest of us.
A guide that takes you from 1 -60 and explains everything rather than assuming you already know, is going to be so useful.

I want to level my summoner next and since I'm not particularly enjoying Bard, I'm hoping to switch. I'll definitely be checking back here to see how this project progresses.

[FeliAiko]

Snip.

In light of this thread, I've gone back and forth in my head over making a SMN Beginner's/Leveling Guide of sorts, divided into 4 parts (15-30, 30-50, 50-60, then 60 & Endgame) with sub-sections for each. In your case though (being a lvl 15 Arcanist according to your Lodestone), I'd say for now you can apply the majority of what OP mentioned here as you level up to 50 at least.