Has there been any mentioning of job changes for 3.1?

[Adire]

Yes, PLD need more DPS. But they do not, and should not, be the top. At least not without nerfing their strengths...which kinda ruins the whole point of being a PLD in the first place.

Very much in agreement with this statement. PLD DPS should not come close to WAR DPS, but should do more than they do currently without the clunky, annoying stance system they have. WAR is more difficult to play correctly and less forgiving of CD mismanagement, so there's that reason, and PLD should retain its identity and playstyle. SE should just stop with their DPS check fascination for fights. We have more than enough of those now. Make some fights where the tankbusters hit so hard and in sync with PLD's CDs that PLDs survive much more reliably than WARs, but DPS checks are so non-existant that it gives raids a reason to use Paladin's strengths, without making it necessary for every Paladin to push out big DPS. Actually make some fights that satisfy people who like more traditional tanking. Make it so that PLD's DPS disadvantage is worth taking for their mitigation advantages. Whether this means different fights or changes to PLD's defensive capabilities, either way it should happen.

[RiceisNice]

Very much in agreement with this statement. PLD DPS should not come close to WAR DPS. WAR is more difficult to play correctly and less forgiving of CD mismanagement, so there's that reason,

How is it nesssescarly more "difficult" let alone "less forgiving"? The former is rather subjective, but warrior's mitigation CDs aren't too that far off of paladins and healing the two tanks are more-or-less the same when you boil down to effective healing/hp and equal gear

Make some fights where the tankbusters hit so hard and in sync with PLD's CDs that PLDs survive much more reliably than WARs,

It's a tight line to walk. When you start making content do so much damage that you need a paladin as the to-go maintank, DRK falls out in favor. And for the record, DRKs have functionally the same mitigation abilities to survive tank busters as paladins do minus the shield, and warrior more-or-less the same timers for their own mitigations through vengence, ToB and raw intuition if it's a physical.

but DPS checks are so non-existant that it gives raids a reason to use Paladin's strengths, without making it necessary for every Paladin to push out big DPS. Actually make some fights that satisfy people who like more traditional tanking.

People are bringing up paladin's "strengths" when there honestly isn't much to go off of. They have HG that comes with a whooping 7 minute cooldown. They're not all that much better than DRK or even WAR when it comes to eating tankbusters that come at regular intervals (unless you want to factor in shield blocking, which even then becomes random/gimmicky and it's effectiveness is up in the air because of warrior's raw intuition) Stun locking drains into your TP more than anything (and PLDs still don't have the means to manage it or otherwise mitigate it's consumption) and is not on the oGCD, making it rather cumbersome for on-the-spot interrupts for boss mechanics. Even if you were to make fights more oriented on tank survival, DRK/WAR aren't too far off on that regard compared to PLD, although warrior has the better means of offtanking.

[Ashkendor]

Make some fights where the tankbusters hit so hard and in sync with PLD's CDs that PLDs survive much more reliably than WARs, but DPS checks are so non-existant that it gives raids a reason to use Paladin's strengths, without making it necessary for every Paladin to push out big DPS. Actually make some fights that satisfy people who like more traditional tanking. Make it so that PLD's DPS disadvantage is worth taking for their mitigation advantages. Whether this means different fights or changes to PLD's defensive capabilities, either way it should happen.

This just exchanges one glaring problem for another, though. If you make it so nobody but a PLD can reliably survive the tank busters, you end up with PLD having a guaranteed slot in that particular raid. Contrary to popular belief, that's not what we're looking for here.

Let's face it - when you get down to it, high DPS is a defensive capability as well. The faster it dies, the less damage it does.

[Adire]

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It's more difficult and less forgiving because one of WAR's major mitigation skills (Inner Beast) is not available at the click of a button like all of Paladin's many mitigation skills. You have to figure out if you have time to use stacks for something like fel cleave or not before you need them for inner beast.

It's more difficult and less forgiving because WAR's other mitigation skills with the exception of Vengeance (which is equivalent to shield oath + rampart, with Rampart having a shorter cooldown advantage over Vengeance) and Thrill of Battle, WAR's mitigation skills are indirect and come at costs. Timing of them is far more crucial, and not as simple as "click and forget" like PLD's. A WAR typically has to decide on either sacrificing Eye for Path, or Path for Eye. A bad decision there = lost mitigation. Equilibrium is only beneficial after damage has been taken, not before it, and comes at the cost of losing a 200 TP regen.

It's more difficult and less forgiving because with how WAR's stance dancing works, you have to allow time to pass before you can switch stances again. PLD's stance switching is a blessing and a curse, more often a curse than a blessing imo, but with regards to switching faster, PLD has the advantage of ease. 1 GCD is shorter than the time WARs have to wait to switch after switching.

Being that WAR's tank stance is also not direct mitigation, it makes WAR's direction mitigation skills all the more important to use at the right times as well. If a tank buster is going to kill a WAR with the bonus health they have (this and healing received boost only do so much against spike damage), popping a direct mitigation cooldown like Vengeance, which has a much tighter requirement for its use than rotating Sentinel and Rampart and such, and using Inner Beast is the only answer. Inner Beast must be up at the right time, which is something a WAR has to keep in mind at all times when managing stacks and stance timing and balancing Eye/Path, and failing that, a WAR is in deep trouble due to essentially having no added defense against a large spike in damage.

I've played both PLD and WAR extensively. I strongly agree with the community's seeming consensus that PLD is quite easier to play than WAR.

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Not really. A fight could be designed to where it was beneficial to have a WAR MT, then swap to PLD for easier mitigation of tank busters, then back to WAR MT. All it takes is a little creativity. It's been done in other games before, it's not impossible to get something other than dps check dps check dps check.

Besides, in a game where we can play every single job on one character, it should open up things like this to being more flexible. In many games, you can only play one class per character, and all classes of a role have strengths and weaknesses. Homogenization of jobs is not necessary there, why should it be here when we can alternate our jobs with such ease?

[RiceisNice]

Not really. A fight could be designed to where it was beneficial to have a WAR MT, then swap to PLD for easier mitigation of tank busters, then back to WAR MT. All it takes is a little creativity. It's been done in other games before, it's not impossible to get something other than dps check dps check dps check.

Besides, in a game where we can play every single job on one character, it should open up things like this to being more flexible. In many games, you can only play one class per character, and all classes of a role have strengths and weaknesses. Homogenization of jobs is not necessary there, why should it be here when we can alternate our jobs with such ease?

So you've kicked DRK out of the curb then. In which case,

This just exchanges one glaring problem for another, though. If you make it so nobody but a PLD can reliably survive the tank busters, you end up with PLD having a guaranteed slot in that particular raid. Contrary to popular belief, that's not what we're looking for here.

And even then, a warrior is just as capable of taking tank busters as much as a paladin, if not better if it's on a set interval because they can always have inner beast ready. If it's a physical skill that requires blocking, parry works just as well (with warriors having raw intuition). Both jobs can maintank, but warrior does a better job at off tanking (or off tank dpsing specifically) that you'd dont want them to be in the MT spot.


It's not impossible to make something not be strict on dps check, but again,

Let's face it - when you get down to it, high DPS is a defensive capability as well. The faster it dies, the less damage it does.

More damage while being able to survive the fight means the fight goes by faster, phases get pushe faster, and less healing is needed.

While the tanks are interchangeable, it's not necessarily the case now because eso gear is not shared between them. The reasoning to choosing a class/job is ultimately the preference of playstyle and fitting party compositions (you avoid doubling up)

[Adire]

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I haven't kicked DRK to the curb because I haven't been discussing it in the first place. I'd rather not talk about a job I'm not all that familiar with, and with regards to the discussion we've been having between us, discussing DRK is a moot point. The main focus of our discussion is why PLD does or does not necessarily need to be on par with the other tanks in damage terms, and how it can be made viable and even optimal to raids in its mitigation capabilities.

And I don't know why you keep mentioning that, I'm well aware that more dps > unneeded extra mitigation. No need to preach to the choir.

I am simply saying, there are ways to improve PLD as a defensive tank, and ways to implement it as such that raids have a better reason to bring them. Shifting focus away from DPS checks and bringing focus to tank survivability through various forms of damage is one way, it's done in many a game. Having more fights where PLD's direct mitigation can shine more would even out the playing field just fine, without sacrificing job diversity. It's done elsewhere and works great, why can't it and shouldn't it be done here? It's not uncommon at all in other games to see certain tanks with more DPS potential, certain tanks with more mitigation potential, and content that plays to both's strengths and encourages both to be present.