Four Ways to Die - why the Tank Meta feels "off".

[Dhex]

+1 OP; I feel like Square wants to continue pushing things like Vitality and Parry out of desire to be somewhat traditional but they've pushed damage as the meta and it just means role homogenization.
Everyone is a DPS - this role continues to bleed into Tanking & Healing you're going to find people will want them to make these Jobs more rewarding and seamless to play;

Look at Paladin complaints - low/inconsistent damage, not TP management, clunky tank swapping, no offensive cooldowns. Why? Because our toolkit isn't cultivated towards the current state-of-play.

As for "ways to die" - content doesn't necessarily need to drop your HP to 0 either;

Bosses could make you memorize a 50-step emote train that resets the encounter if anyone messes up their emotes.

Bosses could be more Tower-defense such as Vishap where you fail if you don't protect the objective.

Bosses could be anything Square wants - Players are just used to living in a very limited "content box" - so currently they've gone back to the safety of round-arena boss formula and pushed a rather basic "high DPS" with timed busters encounter design.

[Tilgung]

Just here to point out that the concept of a brick wall tank never truly existed in Final Fantasy XI. It was tried and failed miserably early on the in games life cycle. Kiting took over. And eventually Utsusemi tanking became a thing. And then DPS tanking became a thing because they held hate better and were barely frailer than their tank counterparts.

So yeah, any "brick wall" from XI has no idea what they're talking about.

[Syzygian]

Has anyone else noticed that people that do subscribe to the DPS side of tanking, and embrace it, do not simply disagree with the brick wall mentality, but are openly and deliberately hostile towards it? I constantly wonder why this is and what it achieves.

[Tilgung]

Has anyone else noticed that people that do subscribe to the DPS side of tanking, and embrace it, do not simply disagree with the brick wall mentality, but are openly and deliberately hostile towards it? I constantly wonder why this is and what it achieves.

I see the exact opposite more often in game.

[Syzygian]

I see the exact opposite more often in game.

Really? Give examples, I'm curious.

[Rhaja]

I have several cases of where I've almost ragequit my FC after die hard VIT tanks have made it a mission to shoot me down every time I've tried explaining STR tanking to people who were curious about trying it. Or on a off day of tanking it was never "You're doing bad," or "You suck" but "Oh STR tank, explains it".

The STR advocates are usually boisterous and love doing what they do because they love the meta, where as the VIT tanks are usually spiteful because they've been told their prefered method of tanking is wrong. Its honestly been getting to the point that I pray SE would just make VIT our damage stat so this crap can come to and end.

If nothing else if I have to see one more case of "Would you tell a healer to go all INT then?" I swear I'm going to get kicked from that party/LS/FC

[Duelle]

Just here to point out that the concept of a brick wall tank never truly existed in Final Fantasy XI. It was tried and failed miserably early on the in games life cycle. Kiting took over. And eventually Utsusemi tanking became a thing. And then DPS tanking became a thing because they held hate better and were barely frailer than their tank counterparts.

That was because XI's developers didn't know how to create defensive stats that scaled appropriately nor did they design the intended tanks (WAR and PLD) with the needed mechanics to make it happen.

The chief complain was that defense as a stat was worthless, VIT reduced physical incoming damage but neither tank had anything to then help them hold aggro. Gear swaps alleviated things a bit, until people discovered a DPS in -damage taken gear could mitigate as much as a tank and hold aggro better. Then there's Utsusemi tanking. It was a true balance clusterfuck.

[Tilgung]

I think it tends to be the fact a large number of Balmung players are RPers, even amongst the midcore raiders. The mere suggestion of converting some of that fending to slaying is apparently a very offensive concept to numerous tanks I've encountered. My best guess is: if they're going to role play a tank, they need to play a tank in classical sense in every facet of the game.

Unfortunately, the meta is the meta. And anyone attempting midcore or hardcore raiding needs to adhere to it to be successful. And it's these tanks in particular I try to offer advice to. And a surprising number of them are violently against it.

[Tilgung]

That was because XI\\'s developers didn\\'t know how to create defensive stats that scaled appropriately nor did they design the intended tanks (WAR and PLD) with the needed mechanics to make it happen.

The chief complain was that defense as a stat was worthless, VIT reduced physical incoming damage but neither tank had anything to then help them hold aggro. Gear swaps alleviated things a bit, until people discovered a DPS in -damage taken gear could mitigate as much as a tank and hold aggro better. Then there\\'s Utsusemi tanking. It was a true balance clusterfuck.

I'm very much aware of the reasons. And it doesn't refute my point: Any tank claiming to be an old fashioned brick wall in XI has no idea what they're talking about. It never existed.

[Syzygian]

I think it tends to be the fact a large number of Balmung players are RPers, even amongst the midcore raiders. The mere suggestion of converting some of that fending to slaying is apparently a very offensive concept to numerous tanks I've encountered. My best guess is: if they're going to role play a tank, they need to play a tank in classical sense in every facet of the game.

Unfortunately, the meta is the meta. And anyone attempting midcore or hardcore raiding needs to adhere to it to be successful. And it's these tanks in particular I try to offer advice to. And a surprising number of them are violently against it.

I see. I'm definitely in the camp of tanks who adheres to the meta but doesn't really like it. But a tank is above all, adaptable, and everyone should keep that in mind I feel.

Its hard for people to believe, but I have met healers that are extremely capable and good at taking advantage of every nanoparticle of mitigation/HP that a tank has. I've even raided with a couple... I've seen them more than match and even supersede the DPS deficit from their tanks not being in full STR gear, just by looking at their fflogs. Most healers I feel are, like the rest of us, adapting, and I wonder how many of them just don't know what to do with a tank that trying hard to boost their DPS. I know my current healers are not nearly so comfortable going ham, and every raid night in A3S when I put on a couple of slaying pieces instead of melds, I almost feel a pang of guilt. =/ Just the way it is though, I suppose.