Bard - they broke my job

[Judge_Xero]

Youd have to factor in the damage loss from auto attacks, specifically, auto attacks that are paired with barrage, HE and B4B (which honestly, is more potent in the long run than our current barrage will ever be assuming equal gear, especially since each auto attack can crit)

Also for ironjaws, you'd have to take it outside of the vaccum of comparing the skill vs reapplying the two bites. TP issues aside, WB is 330, VN is 310, IJ is 580. But the latter is assuming you let all the ticks hit and you don't overshoot the refresh by a second (while at the same time not risking the drop).

And lastly with multi-dotting, this is really where the OGCD-Clipping can hurt you in regards to trying to catch all the procs and use your weaponskills. Compared to 2.0, your weaponskills will get pushedback/delayed at times because of overlapping oGCDs, espesically in regards to empyreal arrow that'll delay the cast of your next weaponskill no matter what if you use it right after a weaponskill. You won't be able to get your weaponskills in as it comes off cooldown is what I'm saying, which can lead to lower output outside of objectively looking at potency count
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Very good points. I didn't consider the difference of the new Barrage VS old Barrage.
old Barrage ~ 100 Potency * 3 over 10 seconds (900 Potency + Crit potential)
new Barrage ~ 3 X 286 Potency (EA) @ GCD lenght (858 Potency + no crit chance)

So old Barrage does appear better other than the risk of not hitting your 3X barrage or not facing target. But skilled bards don't do that anyway.
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The same risks could be associated with reapplication of Bard VB/WB as just using IJ. So definitely a gain + extra WS on top of any additional mobs you are multi dotting. (outside of missing the reapplication entirely and only doing a 100 Potency attack, which shouldn't happen)

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Multi-Dotting does get messy for sure. Not arguing that Bard doesn't need QoL fixes for oGCD management. Was just saying that the new 3.0 tools for bard is a net gain compared to 2.0.

This is about the only spot Brd has a significant increase over how it used to be, but on a single target this isn't true. Have to remember when factoring potency we have Passive traits that increase action damage by 10% and 20% as well as the +30% WM. Other jobs have skills that have potency of 300+ without factoring any additional traits or buffs in effect, so I'm sorry but all that did was act as a bandaid to a blemish. Covers up the problem, but doesn't really make it go away.

But buffs are also multiplicative of each other as well. So while WM is a 30% buff, with IAC it's actually 36% (100 Potency * 1.2 = 120, add in WM and you have 120 * 1.3 = 156 Potency)

So while DRG has a 3 Tier combo 150, 200, 360 etc, BRD is doing 234 Potency per hit with WM, with a 150 Potency HS.

Another factor is that weapon damage as a whole for both brd and mch. We effectively hat 10% less weapon damage also in comparison to other physical DPS. Anyone who knows anything about the damage calculation formula knows this is the biggest deciding factor in damage output - IE getting that bow for 900 ESO is better than getting that body for 825 ESO.

This doesn't really work like you may think it works. Yes WD is a modifier for Damage and yes BRD is lower than melee. But because BRD is scaled to the lower WD, each point of WD is worth more than a melee. This works in inverse for magic classes where their Magic Damage @ i210 is 105. Each class is balanced around it's Potency/second and it's gear scales accordingly.

Also, because of this BRD scales extremely well with secondary stats and WD. Where a magic class would scale well with MD, good with INT, and ok with Secondary stats.

Yet we are always 10% lower than any other physical DPS and still have lower potency skills on top of it. Thus there are many deciding factors as to why we have comparatively less output than any other job, but when SE codes clunkiness in and over nerfs attacks this only makes it far more noticable. Used to be this was a fair trade - consistent damage while avoiding mechanics that required a brd to play in this way at times. Now it isn't quite so seeing as they made us be a turret to 'gain' dps. If this were true then we'd have comparative damage to where we were at 2.5 without WM and increased damage while in WM as a trade off. I only bring this up as this was the main reason they nerfed the hell out of certain sub buffs for brd around 2.1. Everyone moaned and complained that brd was doing too much spike damage on top of mobility....now that isn't so and we are still being punished in the long run.

Playing both BRD and MCN, I can definitely agree that BRD's mobility has been reduced way too much to warrant the reduced DPS compared to a Melee class. MCN can do similar DPS but is much more mobile and has very similar utility, albeit BRD utility is much better.

I don't think that BRD is weak on paper, and better mobility and oGCD management would really be all it needs.

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Leader Board Ranking for my World
Opressor
DRG 1174 113%
BRD 1041 100%
SMN 1143 110%

Cuff of the Father
DRG 1590 106%
BRD 1500 100%
SMN 2200 146% - Not a great value to Balance by, due to SMN just being a beast in this Fight.

Living Liquid
DRG 1175 125%
BRD 939 100%
SMN 1100 117%

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Comparing to Second Coil (couldn't find any First Coil data as that would have been a better comparison due to being at the same level of gear progression VS 3.0)

But BRD for the most part was 15%-20% below any top DPS value in Second Coil.

Comparing to FCOB BRD was ~ 10-15% below any top DPS

I imagine that in First Coil Bard was ~ 20-25% below any top DPS, as the trend follows a 5% gap closure based on gear progression.

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The only turn that is truly bad for Bard is A3S, which is IMO due to it's limited ability to move. Otherwise for the most part, Bard is further ahead in the first set of Endgame content than it was in 2.0. Which leads me to believe that that gap will only lessen in future content due to the level of secondary stat scaling Bard has, specifically Crit. Obviously given some slight QoL fixes in order to properly utilize the extra oGCD leverage the class has.

If Bard had a bit more mobility and a better way to weave oGCDs, I'm sure A3S would improve to ~1050 DPS, which would only leave the other classes at ~10%-12%

Following that trend, and then considering how other classes scale with the same stats, Bard should be on course to be within 5% of top DPS for the last set of Alexander Raids.

[RiceisNice]

You can let wb and vb run its full course before having to refresh it. You can't with IJ, or at least the window is much smaller, because it requires the DoTs to still be on the mob as its being casted.

And when you're comparing bard potency to dragoon, don't forget they're still auto attacking with heavy thrust and disembowel attached to it.

[Judge_Xero]

You can let wb and vb run its full course before having to refresh it. You can't with IJ, or at least the window is much smaller, because it requires the DoTs to still be on the mob as its being casted.

And when you're comparing bard potency to dragoon, don't forget they're still auto attacking with heavy thrust and disembowel attached to it.

The IJ refresh window is definitely small, but if you refresh with <1s left then there should be no lost potency as you can fit your 6 ticks within 0-18s, whether the ticks are at 0.1s and 17.1s, or 1s and 18s. Which should technically be tighter than refreshing them individually, due to using them one after another because of the difference in the GCD and Dot timers, there is a risk of losing a tick on the second dot by refreshing too early, or losing a tick on the first one by refreshing to late.

I didn't want to get too in depth comparing classes with IAC to Melee combo's but you are correct. I just wanted to compare it in it's basic form, otherwise I'd open a door to, "well X class has higher uptime of buffs and if you include NIN, TA buff then X class has higher burst".

But that's why I instead gave Leader Board endgame DPS values, to show how it reflects in actual content.

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How do people feel about those numbers? Is it a good representation of where BRD DPS currently is compared to other classes? I hope no one feels they are cherry picked, as I just pulled them from my world database. Other worlds may vary. But I don't feel that it shows BRD is that much behind compared to how people feel it is. I feel that it even closer to other classes than in 2.0.

If they could fix SS procs, alter some other skill to be instant cast to increase movement and through that improve oGCD weaving then BRD will be a beast of a class, with only slightly less freedom of movement than in 2.0

[RiceisNice]

The IJ refresh window is definitely small, but if you refresh with <1s left then there should be no lost potency as you can fit your 6 ticks within 0-18s, whether the ticks are at 0.1s and 17.1s, or 1s and 18s. Which should technically be tighter than refreshing them individually, due to using them one after another because of the difference in the GCD and Dot timers, there is a risk of losing a tick on the second dot by refreshing too early, or losing a tick on the first one by refreshing to late.

It just becomes a stingy window of opportunity when you're juggling that with oGCD clipping, delayed weaponskills and of course mobility (where things can happen at the wrong time). At least with refreshing the individual dots with the original skill, you have no risk of it misfiring because your timing was off (whereas IJ you're doing a 100 potency finger point).

I didn't want to get too in depth comparing classes with IAC to Melee combo's but you are correct. I just wanted to compare it in it's basic form, otherwise I'd open a door to, "well X class has higher uptime of buffs and if you include NIN, TA buff then X class has higher burst".

Just keeping it for a job versus job comparison though. I just wanted to point out that you can't really compare a BRD rotation to a DRG one (x3 heavy shots with WM at 234 potency versus 165-220-396 DRG combo when they're doing auto attacks during all that)

But that's why I instead gave Leader Board endgame DPS values, to show how it reflects in actual content.

Are these leaderboards all within the same group or just taking the best out of each class? If it's the former, you'd have to consider the circumstances behind all of those and the party makeup behind it, and if it really is the case, then all three are cherry picked, but the important thing is it a good representation of the average, or is it an extreme outlier.

If they could fix SS procs, alter some other skill to be instant cast to increase movement and through that improve oGCD weaving then BRD will be a beast of a class, with only slightly less freedom of movement than in 2.0

Fixing the oGCD and SS procs for BRD goes a long way, but it's honestly not far too off how MCH plays to begin with (or the other way around, MCH shares too many similarities to BRD). Honestly, I'd much rather have them differentiate WM and GB from each other so it provides different benefits to each class and have their own identities, such as one of them boosting attack speed, reducing GCD and reducing TP cost with a cast time. Aesthetics and feels can play a lot to this, and I miss having a ranged class that deals numerous hits via weapon skills, oGCDs and auto attacks.

I really cant stress enough that as a 2.x BRD who's done FCoB and didn't jump around necessarily, WM is a boring addition to the job because it literally has not given me any new gameplay or mechanics to work with, except the added problems of having a cast time because the original skill set was not designed with cast times in mind. MCH only got away with it imo because it's a new job and I was expecting it to play entirely different from what we've seen anyway, but the addition of GB and WM on both of them has instead homogenized their gameplay quite a bit.

[Judge_Xero]

Those Leaderboard results were all the best of each class. So uniformly cherry picked I suppose. Max VS Max is a fair comparison no matter the party composition. (people going for max DPS usually go with the most ideal party comp)

Edited: (Stupid phone didn't post everything)

I have no argument against WM being the same as GB and with the addition of WM, MCN playing very similar to BRD because of it. It would be nice if they did play differently, but I'm sure for simplicity on balancing they were designed that way.

I just don't buy the idea that WM completely changed Bard, or this other one that Bard DPS ratio to full DPS is way behind what it was in 2.0. Sure, because WM adds a cast time to skills it alters oGCD weaving of the class. But that isn't a characteristic of WM/GB as we see with MCN. It's due to SE not implementing it properly, since it works fine for MCN. Sure MCN doesn't have Bloodletter, but it has shorter CD's on it's skills as well as Quick Reload every 15s.

Aesthetics and feels can play a lot to this, and I miss having a ranged class that deals numerous hits via weapon skills, oGCDs and auto attacks.

I know that was the big appeal to most people for this class. It was very fast and mobile with lots of small attacks with buckets of Crit.

Having a stance that increased attack speed and reduced TP cost would play very well with BRD I'm sure. But with how 2.0 BRD played I don't think it would be long before many people quit the game due to carpel tunnel.

[Kitkat]

Not sure where you're getting some of those leader boards as the drg seems a little low from what I've seen in raiding, and is fairly lower than the mnk I've run with also. Brd is about accurate in a good run, still slightly low from what I've managed in AS1 and slightly higher than what I've done in AS2, but about par for AS3 due to how mechanic heavy the fight is.

Hitting on the multiplicative also, in factoring out brd on paper, does give it a consistence. In practice this holds up also, but again it is one of those items where it is heavily dependent on the job not having clunky mechanics itself.

I did state it was not simply one things causing brd to have less performance so much as a culmination of things. Having the lower weapon damage has been a consistent thing, but the clunkiness of the job isn't. SE effectively rewrote how brd was intended to play then gave it a fluff name and what appears to be a strong buff.....that doesn't really make brd any better than it was at peak play in 2.x. It in fact it hurt brd at peak play, because it limited how well certain abilities could be utilized. The change would be worth it if oGCD didn't have clipping issues like it does, or using repelling shot didn't create a situation where you better have it timed well...or you have to lose DPS time to give that pause to avoid being 'interrupted'.

The clunkiness is a huge part of the problem with brd as it stands. It wouldn't be if there were other options looked at:
Bump WD up a bit.
Maybe raise Sidewinder potency back up a bit higher than it is now, but still lower than it initially was at 3.0.
Possibly give a trait that causes an extra potency tack on to DoT's when in WM to compensate for AA loss.

It is just one of those things where SE tells you to 'Look forward to it!' and it ends up being a flaming paper bag full of dog poop sitting on your doorstep. I'm not saying brd is entirely broken, but it has fundamentally changed in a way that causes it to have some major issues in dire need of ironing out.

[RiceisNice]

Those Leaderboard results were all the best of each class. So uniformly cherry picked I suppose. Max VS Max is a fair comparison no matter the party composition. (people going for max DPS usually go with the most ideal party comp)

I also meant it in the sense that it can be an extreme outlier because none of these players are paired with each other. There's things that can happen wehre a BRD (and SMN) can inflate their dps via multi dotting, and whether or not it's effective dps is a different concern. I mean I'm not hte boat that I'm not satisified or disasstified with BRD's current damage output, but it's hard to take numbers for face value and say it as it is.

I have no argument against WM being the same as GB and with the addition of WM, MCN playing very similar to BRD because of it. It would be nice if they did play differently, but I'm sure for simplicity on balancing they were designed that way.

You don't want to sacrifice variety for simplicity when it comes to this sort of thing though, espesically when those two jobs are competing with each other for the same raid slot. They could've easily done something with machinist by expanding more on their ammo mechanics or the scrapped-attachment idea (like increasing TP cost and reducing potency to add an AoE effect or something, instead of giving carbon copies of quick notch and grenado). They've done it with the three melees and the two casters, and heck even the tanks perform their rotations and skill usage on different foundations.

I just don't buy the idea that WM completely changed Bard, or this other one that Bard DPS ratio to full DPS is way behind what it was in 2.0. Sure, because WM adds a cast time to skills it alters oGCD weaving of the class. But that isn't a characteristic of WM/GB as we see with MCN. It's due to SE not implementing it properly, since it works fine for MCN. Sure MCN doesn't have Bloodletter, but it has shorter CD's on it's skills as well as Quick Reload every 15s.

It's the characteristics of cast times being added onto a class that was clearly not designed with cast times in mind. MCH has absolutely no risk of double weaving oGCDs because they don't have a reset oGCD. But once you boil it down, both jobs are functionally doing the same thing; Keeping their buff up, keeping their DoT up, using oGCDs when it comes off cooldown (because honestly, ammunition doesn't add any special interaction to your weapon skills; it's not like dork arts or timing the use with your aetherflows to maintain proper derpwyrm trance usage), watch for procs (this last one being next to impossible for BRD). It just feels like an undersell considering it's a new job and the fact we have 3 melees and 2 casters who can already set their own identities through their own unique mechanics.

And you're right that WM didn't completely change BRD, but that's one of my gripes with BRD's new skills in 3.0, because they more or less play the way they did in 2.0 if you weren't a hyperactive chicken that jumped around for no reason. Only they also made it a bit more cumbersome because of the cast times interfering with their original moveset. Like, If were to try to tell my friends in a nutshell what each class got, it'd be something like "DRG has to maintain a buff by hitting randomized positionals and using a skill to not waste the buff, BLMs and SMNs have more timers to manage via the new skills, BRD got cast times"

Having a stance that increased attack speed and reduced TP cost would play very well with BRD I'm sure. But with how 2.0 BRD played I don't think it would be long before many people quit the game due to carpel tunnel.

Considering monks and ninjas are already playing with 2s> GCDs (and never mind WoW having 1s GCD for their hunters and rogues), it's a far stretch for carpel tunnel. And even then, they could have done something like that with MCH via the scrapped attachment idea (choosing between DPS over TP efficiency) and leave BRD the way it is with the implementation of WM (proc issues excluded of course)

[Judge_Xero]

Not sure where you're getting some of those leader boards...

I pulled them off here

http://www.fflogs.com/

Hitting on the multiplicative also, in factoring out brd on paper, does give it a consistence. In practice this holds up also, but again it is one of those items where it is heavily dependent on the job not having clunky mechanics itself.

Absolutely agree here. That is why I mentioned the % ratio being off for A3S compared to other DPS classes. BRD just doesn't have to movement tools to keep up the damage on top of oGCD weaving. A3S is pretty movement intensive compared to the previous 2 turns. My example was just to show that the #'s were there compared to 2.0 and that the situation was better, not worse compared to 2.0.

I did state it was not simply one things causing brd to have less performance so much as a culmination of things. Having the lower weapon damage has been a consistent thing, but the clunkiness of the job isn't. SE effectively rewrote how brd was intended to play then gave it a fluff name and what appears to be a strong buff.....that doesn't really make brd any better than it was at peak play in 2.x. It in fact it hurt brd at peak play, because it limited how well certain abilities could be utilized. The change would be worth it if oGCD didn't have clipping issues like it does, or using repelling shot didn't create a situation where you better have it timed well...or you have to lose DPS time to give that pause to avoid being 'interrupted'.

I know it wasn't your only point, but it was the only one that really needed correction, since BRD having a lower WD compared to other classes is not really a cause for anything in regards to the damage difference. Like you emphasize yourself here, it is merely the clunky implementation of WB with Bards existing skills, that gives the appearance of being weaker. People who have been able to adapt to the clunkyness show it is really pretty decent, but it could be a lot better with QoL adjustments, and the potential is there.

As an Aside: It gets me pretty excited when Straighter lines up with Repelling shot into a buffed Barrage Empyreal Arrow. If Bard had that level of synergy on a few different levels with WM, then it would definitely get that 2.0 feeling back.

The clunkiness is a huge part of the problem with brd as it stands. It wouldn't be if there were other options looked at:
Bump WD up a bit.
Maybe raise Sidewinder potency back up a bit higher than it is now, but still lower than it initially was at 3.0.
Possibly give a trait that causes an extra potency tack on to DoT's when in WM to compensate for AA loss.

I think the only real option is to fix the clunkyness. It doesn't matter how much damage you do if at the end of the day the class is frustrating to play.

[Warlyx]

I think the only real option is to fix the clunkyness. It doesn't matter how much damage you do if at the end of the day the class is frustrating to play.

while i fully agree...SE can do both at the same time right?.... fix the clunkyness while improving a bit the dmg :P , im tired of sacrificing X for Y just because im bard...

[JackFross]

The REAL issue with Bard and Machinist DPS is that they're currently tuned to where their numbers are on-par with other dps if a Dragoon is present and they fall pretty significantly without one.

Looking at Oppressor, every 1300+ BRD has a DRG in the party, and that's already 150-200 behind the top dps. The absolute best Bard without a Dragoon in their party is at 1211 in a one-jump kill, about 10% behind the top bard overall (1358). This is what should be looked at when discussing the parity of WM. The fact that a Bard on its own is a solid 250-300 behind the top dps (>25%) without the help of a Dragoon is worrying. In my opinion, if Yoship wants all of the classes to be dealing good damage, those 1350s should be no-dragoon, allowing them to rise to 1460-1480 with dragoon support. Disembowel should be a BONUS to their damage, not a REQUIREMENT for them to even be in contention.

Sauce being fflogs.