Would PLD be viable if its mitigation was as superior to DRK as its DPS is inferior?

[Starkbeaumont]

stuff

not sure what you do, but sword oath does a lot for pld's dps. as OT all 3 tanks seem to come out even (with slashing debuff) when I tested it. at least for the time TP is fine. unfortunately as MT PLD is terrible at doing dmg.

Giving PLD a superior mitigation compared to the other tanks, would only work if that gives healers enough room to do more dmg, otherwise ppl will always go for the more effective (faster) way, even if it means tanks taking slightly more dmg

[Faeon]

not sure what you do, but sword oath does a lot for pld's dps. as OT all 3 tanks seem to come out even (with slashing debuff) when I tested it. at least for the time TP is fine. unfortunately as MT PLD is terrible at doing dmg.

Giving PLD a superior mitigation compared to the other tanks, would only work if that gives healers enough room to do more dmg, otherwise ppl will always go for the more effective (faster) way, even if it means tanks taking slightly more dmg

People will always go for the faster most effective way, more dps means less chance of enrage. That is if you want to be cutting edge and keep up with current content, when the set gear ilvl is meant to be higher.
All depends on play style of group, maybe your one of the lucky ones and the group don't mind waiting a month or two, until they have the gear they require to-do the content. But if you want tobe the top, then I am sorry, then its all about bring the what is needed and is efficient and will benefit the group.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

Utility > Mitigation. DPS is a utility that benifits the entire raid while personal mitigation might allow for slightly higher healer DPS, the amount of mitigation PLD would need to make a difference would be tremendous.

The entire tanking meta in FF14 revolves around scripted burst damage. All tanks have been given the ability to survive all encounters so what we have left on the table is DPS and utility (STR down, INT down, Slash down).

Buffing PLD personal defense would do little to alleviate its issues. Now if PLD was given more meaningful raidwide mitigation like Storms Path coupled with STR down then the mitigation might breach levels that would allow for increased raid DPS.

At the end of the day most parties (and tanks) are going to run with the minimum VIT and mitigation needed to survive while pumping out the maximum DPS. Whatever is the most efficient way of achieving this will be what you routinely see in party compositions.

[Cynric]

I agree that the problem comes from warrior being guaranteed the OT spot.If a DRK Ot's they don't get reprisal,(if the boss is purely magical they don't get it either) the same is true of PLD and shield swipe. Shield swipe isn't as useful as reprisal. But neither DRK/PLD toolkit comes close to WAR save for hallowed ground which is on a huge CD anyway. Shelltron isn't that great, Living dead is useless. Clemency has it's moments, Delirium's debuff is useless if your team uses a MNK, you still do it for damage but the utility isn't really there.

Dark Knight(aside from living dead) and Paladin both do what they're supposed to. But Warrior does it all, they bring raid DPS,personal DPS, general mitigation,AoE threat and DPS,holmgang is much better than living dead ,not as much of a super CD as hallowed ground but usable far more often than both. They get guaranteed an OT spot and can MT as well. Neither DRK or PLD can compete with WAR for OT, but WAR can compete for MT and OT.

Either WAR needs to be nerfed, or PLD/DRK needs to be brought in line with WAR. There's no excuse for PLD and DRK to have skills that are for the most part useless.

Giving Paladin(Dark Knight) extra mitigation wouldn't fix anything really since the imbalance lies with warrior and the design of the content.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Dark Knight and Paladin Mitigation needs to work for everything or its simply bad game design. The "specialized" defense thing was a cool idea but it needs to be changed. Otherwise you will see War-War.

Paladins/DRKs in general need buffs to be brought up in line. Warrior however is fine, and actually tuned well as a tank. However that is due to the much love they got for their class. Whoever designed the Warrior is a good developer.

Dark Knight's need to be more about lifetaps and blood shields.

Paladin's block needs to work on magic as well. Just like in the lore of the game.

[Syzygian]

not sure what you do, but sword oath does a lot for pld's dps. as OT all 3 tanks seem to come out even (with slashing debuff) when I tested it. at least for the time TP is fine. unfortunately as MT PLD is terrible at doing dmg.

Giving PLD a superior mitigation compared to the other tanks, would only work if that gives healers enough room to do more dmg, otherwise ppl will always go for the more effective (faster) way, even if it means tanks taking slightly more dmg

I dunno what you do but a DRK that is being matched in DPS outside of tank stance by a PLD is bad and a WAR that is being matched by either outside of tank stance is bad.

I outlined this earlier but i guess it bears repeating, in terms of DPS cooldowns, PLD simply doesn't measure up to WAR or DRK. Its in the numbers.
WAR has +50% attack power every 90s, Internal Release, Maim mitigates tank stance penalty.
DRK has 6 oGCDs totaling 2.4-2.5 potency every minute, Darkside mitigates tank stance penalty.
PLD has 2 oGCDs and +30% damage every 90s. Nothing mitigating tank stance penalty.

PLDs potencies are also, across the board, lower than DRK and WAR. There's no way a PLD in equivalent gear and SwO is matching a DRK out of Grit or a WAR in Defiance.

You're making the mistake of assuming Blood Weapon makes up for Grit, it doesn't.

Wat? I said Darkside mitigates its tank stance penalty (not completely, but it does). Blood Weapon is an out-of-Grit-only cooldown and in addition to the attack speed (which benefits AAs as well as the GCD) it generally generates more MP than Blood Price which leads to more consistent DA usage. The extra damage is equivalent to the SwO autos and +5% Deliverance w/crit Stacks. The discrepancy with PLD is outside of that, in their lack of general offensive abilities that can be used -regardless- of stance, and lower potencies. But if anything, you misunderstood, I was comparing BW to SwO and Deliverance, since DRK does not have an OT stance, anymore than WAR had one in 2.0, it just had Maim uptime with Defiance off (like DRK has Darkside with Grit off). Instead of a stance it has a CD, you could say.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I dunno what you do but a DRK that is being matched in DPS outside of tank stance by a PLD is bad and a WAR that is being matched by either outside of tank stance is bad.

I outlined this earlier but i guess it bears repeating, in terms of DPS cooldowns, PLD simply doesn't measure up to WAR or DRK. Its in the numbers.
WAR has +50% attack power every 90s, Internal Release, Maim mitigates tank stance penalty.
DRK has 6 oGCDs totaling 2.4-2.5 potency every minute, Darkside mitigates tank stance penalty.
PLD has 2 oGCDs and +30% damage every 90s. Nothing mitigating tank stance penalty.

PLDs potencies are also, across the board, lower than DRK and WAR. There's no way a PLD in equivalent gear and SwO is matching a DRK out of Grit or a WAR in Defiance.



Wat? I said Darkside mitigates its tank stance penalty (not completely, but it does). Blood Weapon is an out-of-Grit-only cooldown and in addition to the attack speed (which benefits AAs as well as the GCD) it generally generates more MP than Blood Price which leads to more consistent DA usage. The extra damage is equivalent to the SwO autos and +5% Deliverance w/crit Stacks. The discrepancy with PLD is outside of that, in their lack of general offensive abilities that can be used -regardless- of stance, and lower potencies. But if anything, you misunderstood, I was comparing BW to SwO and Deliverance, since DRK does not have an OT stance, anymore than WAR had one in 2.0, it just had Maim uptime with Defiance off (like DRK has Darkside with Grit off). Instead of a stance it has a CD, you could say.

Nothing mitigates a penalty. It will always be -20%.

[Freyyy]

Nothing mitigates a penalty. It will always be -20%.

I have to agree with this. You have Maim and Darkside even when out of tanking stance, so the penalty is still 20% (25% for WAR).

[Disc]

Wat? I said Darkside mitigates its tank stance penalty (not completely, but it does). Blood Weapon is an out-of-Grit-only cooldown and in addition to the attack speed (which benefits AAs as well as the GCD) it generally generates more MP than Blood Price which leads to more consistent DA usage. The extra damage is equivalent to the SwO autos and +5% Deliverance w/crit Stacks. The discrepancy with PLD is outside of that, in their lack of general offensive abilities that can be used -regardless- of stance, and lower potencies. But if anything, you misunderstood, I was comparing BW to SwO and Deliverance, since DRK does not have an OT stance, anymore than WAR had one in 2.0, it just had Maim uptime with Defiance off (like DRK has Darkside with Grit off). Instead of a stance it has a CD, you could say.

Meant to type Darkside, my bad. And no, it does not mitigate the penalty on grit in any way.

Assume Base = everything excluding Sh/SwOath, Grit, Darkside, Bloodweapon, Defiance, & Deliverance

PLD Base = Roughly 7947 potency
PLD SwOath = Base+1440 potency; Roughly 18% damage increase over Base, or 118% of Base as Max.
PLD ShOath = 80% of Base damage, a 20% loss. Or [1-(0.80(ShOath))/1.18(Max))]*100 = 32.2% 
Therefore Shield Oath is a 32.2% DPS loss compared to PLDs maximum damage in SwOath.

DRK Base = 1
Darkside = 1*1.15*1.0375(Bloodweapon); A roughly 19% increase over Base, or 119% of Base as Max.(ignoring BW MP bonus)
Darkside+ Grit = 1*1.15*0.80 = 0.92; An 8% decrease from Base or [1-(0.92(Grit)/1.19(Max))]*100 = 22.7%
Therefore DRK loses 22.7% of Max DPS by turning Grit on, ignoring Bloodweapon TP/MP bonuses.
No Darkside + Grit = 1*0.8 = 0.8; A 20% decrease from Base or [1-(0.80(Grit)/1.19(Max))]*100 = 32.8%
Therefore DRK loses 32.8% of Max DPS if Darkside drops while Grit is up. Actually more if it's down when certain abilities are off CD.

WAR Base = 1
Deliverance = 1*1.05; A 12.5% increase over Base, or 112.5% of Base as Max.(Crit bonus assumed [(.00+.02+.04+.06+.08+.10)/6)1.5] = 7.5% for simplicity)
Defiance = 1*0.75; A 25% decrease from Base, or [1-(0.75(Defiance)/1.125(Max))]*100 = 33.3%
However Unchained = Base 16.6% of the time.
0.3333(Defiance Loss)*.8334(%time without unchained)+[1-(1(Base)/1.125(Max))]*.1666(time with unchained) = 29.6%
Therefore WAR loses roughly 29.6% of Max DPS if Defiance is up, ignoring the higher potency abilities of Deliverance. 

Feel free to correct my math, it's past 3AM for me. The initial poster was on the right track, but holy hell there's so much misinformation going on about tank stances. FoF, Darkside, Berserk, etc do not get to count against tank stance when you have access to them out of tank stance. 1*0.8 & 1000*0.8 are both going to see a 20% loss. Yes this could potentially be offset by ability timing lining up with buffs like Unchained and/or breaks during ability down time. Those variables would be specific to certain fights, and average out in theory. If you would like to simulate 10 minute rotations by fight that might be interesting to see. However, that still will not change the 0.80 modifier on stances.

[Syzygian]

Nothing mitigates a penalty. It will always be -20%.

I have to agree with this. You have Maim and Darkside even when out of tanking stance, so the penalty is still 20% (25% for WAR).

Meant to type Darkside, my bad. And no, it does not mitigate the penalty on grit in any way.

Assume Base = everything excluding Sh/SwOath, Grit, Darkside, Bloodweapon, Defiance, & Deliverance

PLD Base = Roughly 7947 potency
PLD SwOath = Base+1440 potency; Roughly 18% damage increase over Base, or 118% of Base as Max.
PLD ShOath = 80% of Base damage, a 20% loss. Or [1-(0.80(ShOath))/1.18(Max))]*100 = 32.2% 
Therefore Shield Oath is a 32.2% DPS loss compared to PLDs maximum damage in SwOath.

DRK Base = 1
Darkside = 1*1.15*1.0375(Bloodweapon); A roughly 19% increase over Base, or 119% of Base as Max.(ignoring BW MP bonus)
Darkside+ Grit = 1*1.15*0.80 = 0.92; An 8% decrease from Base or [1-(0.92(Grit)/1.19(Max))]*100 = 22.7%
Therefore DRK loses 22.7% of Max DPS by turning Grit on, ignoring Bloodweapon TP/MP bonuses.
No Darkside + Grit = 1*0.8 = 0.8; A 20% decrease from Base or [1-(0.80(Grit)/1.19(Max))]*100 = 32.8%
Therefore DRK loses 32.8% of Max DPS if Darkside drops while Grit is up. Actually more if it's down when certain abilities are off CD.

WAR Base = 1
Deliverance = 1*1.05; A 12.5% increase over Base, or 112.5% of Base as Max.(Crit bonus assumed [(.00+.02+.04+.06+.08+.10)/6)1.5] = 7.5% for simplicity)
Defiance = 1*0.75; A 25% decrease from Base, or [1-(0.75(Defiance)/1.125(Max))]*100 = 33.3%
However Unchained = Base 16.6% of the time.
0.3333(Defiance Loss)*.8334(%time without unchained)+[1-(1(Base)/1.125(Max))]*.1666(time with unchained) = 29.6%
Therefore WAR loses roughly 29.6% of Max DPS if Defiance is up, ignoring the higher potency abilities of Deliverance. 

Feel free to correct my math, it's past 3AM for me. The initial poster was on the right track, but holy hell there's so much misinformation going on about tank stances. FoF, Darkside, Berserk, etc do not get to count against tank stance when you have access to them out of tank stance. 1*0.8 & 1000*0.8 are both going to see a 20% loss. Yes this could potentially be offset by ability timing lining up with buffs like Unchained and/or breaks during ability down time. Those variables would be specific to certain fights, and average out in theory. If you would like to simulate 10 minute rotations by fight that might be interesting to see. However, that still will not change the 0.80 modifier on stances.

No. Please read and comprehend first.

What I'm saying is that yes, its -20% from your top DPS out of tank stance regardless, just like the post details. But as you can see, because PLD has no passive that is up 100% of the time and just has cooldowns its like a WAR with Berserk but no Maim and thus suffers a lot more from going into Shield Oath, almost 10% more. (the 32.8% from Darkside falling off doesn't count because no good DRK ever lets that happen in the middle of tanking something).

WAR loses 25% in Defiance but Maim makes up for 20% of that. DRK loses 20% in Grit but Darkside makes up for 15% of that. PLD loses 20% in Shield Oath but... no that's it. It just loses 20% in Shield Oath. Its like the DRK that let Darkside fall off or the WAR that let Maim fall off. Sure it can pop FoF just like a WAR that doesn't have Maim up can pop Berserk.. This is why PLD DPS isn't stacking up. They don't have that passive that the other two have. They have benefits in their OT stance (like the +5% Deliverance or Blood Weapon) and they have FoF in either stance (like WAR has Berserk in either stance and DRK has 6 oGCDs on short recasts in either stance), but they do NOT have a Maim or a Darkside. Its just missing from their kit.

So when you have a tank that is just straight up missing that, it should be easy to see why I phrased it from the direction I did. I realize nothing -actually- mitigates your tank stance.

What I am saying is that WAR and DRK have abilities that make the "reduces damage dealt by x amount" in their tank stance mostly mitigated i.e. only -5% difference from having nothing up at all. PLD doesn't have this. It loses 20% in Shield Oath and has nothing that directly makes up for most of that that is up 100% of the time. It has nothing that brings it up to -5% from having nothing up at all, at the bare minimum. That's all.

FoF is just a DPS cooldown like Berserk or Blood Weapon, having it up in tank stance just means you're using an offensive CD in tank stance just like WAR can use Beserk in Defiance. Darkside and Maim were clearly by design meant to be a full-time buff and (sort of) offset to the tank stance penalty ON TOP of other offensive CDs or oGCD damaging abilities. If PLD had an ability they could keep 100% uptime on, on top of FoF, which is just a cooldown with a set duration and recast as opposed to something you just have up all the time like a stance, then PLD could probably deal competitive DPS.

Essentially I'm saying the exact same thing as all that math, I'm just pinpointing PLD's problem amongst that math.