Propositions to address crafting/economic woes circa 3.0.

[TechnoTechie]

@TechnoTechie: I would hardly consider Alex: normal a "raid". It can be easily pugged by anyone and was available well before the actual raid content was released.

you might not think so, but the devs clearly do: thus why it's in the "raid" section for heavensward. Of course they're going to balance with this in mind, and even with the difficulty of acquiring it now, I think they planned for the materials to be in much greater abundance after all of the gatherers are done gearing themselves (aka at least 3 months after the release of the system for the solo-class gatherers). I could see square not wanting the i180 gear to be quite so "available" until people have made it through alexander 4 savage and trampled all over it without the gear. I mean that was their plan wasn't it? to remove viability of gear as "content clear-worthy" and push it out to "catch-up" for people getting to 60 much later on.

[Ohiuu]

you might not think so, but the devs clearly do: thus why it's in the "raid" section for heavensward. Of course they're going to balance with this in mind, and even with the difficulty of acquiring it now, I think they planned for the materials to be in much greater abundance after all of the gatherers are done gearing themselves (aka at least 3 months after the release of the system for the solo-class gatherers). I could see square not wanting the i180 gear to be quite so "available" until people have made it through alexander 4 savage and trampled all over it without the gear. I mean that was their plan wasn't it? to remove viability of gear as "content clear-worthy" and push it out to "catch-up" for people getting to 60 much later on.

Hmm, perhaps, but 3.1 is going to (if I understand correctly) add in the new "CT" and presumably weekly i200 gear rewards...also more time people can farm esoterics which would further make an i190 set (even if it is implemented in 3.1) even less relevant. The current gates and cost and whatnot seem sufficient to prevent crafted 190 from overshadowing their intro raid content but waiting until the patch after for "catch-up" gear seems senseless. It's a tragic system that's discouraging a large and robust element of the game from being utilized. It needs to be addressed one way or another.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

I'm kind of iffy on proposition 7 right now, just because a lot of gatherers, myself included, have thrown lots of time and effort into their own scrips so they can get their left-side gear, and introducing them now, several weeks after DoLs have been grinding for their gear, would cause a lot of drama.

As a compromise position:
1) Add craftable DoL gear, but not until 3.2 or whenever the next tier of DoH/L is.
2) Start adding craftable DoL gear, but keep the mainhand gated behind scrips, kind of like how the DoL Supras and Lucises were gated behind independent gathering in 2.x.

However, your figure is absolutely beautiful and summarizes the current situation far better than a paragraph can. Wonderful job, Caimie.

I now changed my point of view and agree with OP on @1. Anyway, thanks! I hope the dev will really patch this asap... There really isn't much time left before people start to walk away...

[Sibyll]

They could also dump the materia system and give crafted gear fixed stats, but allow them to be upgraded via esoterics and raid drops.

For example, crafted i180 pieces can be upgraded to i200 via tokens that cost the same esoterics as the piece being upgraded or to i210 via Gobcoat/twine/dip.

This opens a much needed third option for itemization, allows crafted weapons to be more than glamours, and removes the absurd gil sink materia requirement imposed on crafted gear.

Oh wait but they won't remove the materia system because something something FFVII.

[Alahra]

The game needs more itemization options, regardless of how they do it, yeah. I don't see them making crafted gear that good (though honestly I think your proposal is decent--it gives the upgrades a concrete cost, so they wouldn't really be a way to cheat ilvl progression).

[Aeyis]

Actually, that's inaccurate. Just because crafted gear are always 20 ilevel below the strongest tome gear does not mean crafted gear are not viable. In contrast, crafted gear had always been VERY DESIRABLE even when they were 20 ilevels lower. We all know very well how overpowering crafted i70 were comparing to the "hero" set of i90 bought with Myth tomes back then.

I don't, as I wasnt around then. Main stats can not be added to the left side or weapons, making them less powerful in comparison to the accessories.
Left side stats bonusses were already up for debate, and as poster above you pointed out, pretty much only if the raid dropped secondary stats were really bad.

For instance, you can sacrifice only 3 Strength, but gain a lot more Vitality, Crit rate, skill speed, accuracy and determination. In ARR end game, substituting appropriate i120/i130 accessories with the proper pentamelded i110 crafted accessories contributed much to the victory for a lot of hardcore raiders, and helped many of them beat T13.

Accessories is not the same as [equipment]. Just because accessories were viable, it doesnt make [equipment] viable. What of the leftside or weapons? Which actually provide the majority of stats to begin with.

I don't think the current crafted i180 items are weak at all. Have you pentamelded them and tested them yet?

That's very weak reasoning.
Comparing stats isnt that much work.
I could only see someone use one if for example the WHM chest had no PIE, and the person in question really wants more PIE.
Also, you need tier V materias to reach most desirable caps (or even get close), materias which arent typically available. Unlike with crafting or gathering equipment you cant just use lower grade materias for a ''good enough'' effect either.


Being lazy (or genuinely lacking time) has been the main reason why crafting items (exceptions aside) sold in the past.
Not being gimped too much is also not the same as being viable.

If not, we can't make that call saying they're not powerful yet. We obviously cannot substitute a whole set of i200 with pentamelded i180.

Which more then implies pentamelded i180 is far weaker.

Right now, the biggest problem is not the powers of i180, but the availability of mats to make the i180.

Ofcourse. But if it wasnt, the biggest problem then would be the powers of i180 (or lack thereof)


Tho I do remember when crafted equipment was very desirable, I believe it was in 1.0.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

Accessories is not the same as [equipment]. Just because accessories were viable, it doesnt make [equipment] viable. What of the leftside or weapons? Which actually provide the majority of stats to begin with.

That's very weak reasoning.
Comparing stats isnt that much work.
I could only see someone use one if for example the WHM chest had no PIE, and the person in question really wants more PIE.
Also, you need tier V materias to reach most desirable caps (or even get close), materias which arent typically available. Unlike with crafting or gathering equipment you cant just use lower grade materias for a ''good enough'' effect either.

Being lazy (or genuinely lacking time) has been the main reason why crafting items (exceptions aside) sold in the past.
Not being gimped too much is also not the same as being viable.

Which more then implies pentamelded i180 is far weaker.

Ofcourse. But if it wasnt, the biggest problem then would be the powers of i180 (or lack thereof)

Tho I do remember when crafted equipment was very desirable, I believe it was in 1.0.

Yes, I now agree that i180 left gear is not strong enough. Penta-melding for accessories can catch up about 20 ilevels while for left gear can catch up about 10 ilevels. But i180 vs i210 is just too much, especially when we don't even have Tier V materia.

Anyway, in case you're interested in some test results with left gear, here are an experiment I did awhile ago with a crafted i110 left gear vs i120 looted gear. Enjoy!
http://ffxivrealm.com/threads/a-mini...r-robes.13783/

[ROrzbal]

I love these suggestions. As for skyspring water, I think the ooid/botany mat turn is fine, just remove the red crafter's scrip token requirement.

In terms of crafted gear, you need to think about what is currently gated content for most people, and right now that is A3S. Everything obtainable beforehand is pretty much not worth crafting, i.e. belts, gloves and feet. SO, knowing what is gated by A3S (head, legs, and chest) and comparing that to what's available for each class for UN-UPGRADED Esoterics, there are currently several good crafted pieces, including the caster and aiming headpieces, and chest piece for SCH (I'm sure there are more, this is just what I've made for myself/static). There is a viable market for these things, you just need to be smart about it.

[Sibyll]

The game needs more itemization options, regardless of how they do it, yeah. I don't see them making crafted gear that good (though honestly I think your proposal is decent--it gives the upgrades a concrete cost, so they wouldn't really be a way to cheat ilvl progression).

I think it's the only real option to make everyone happy. The ease of acquiring token gear, the lazily designed materia system, and the lack of ilvl progression are the reasons crafted gear sucks balls.

And as someone else pointed out, all the 2* pieces are palette swaps of 2.x gear. I mean do they have one person working on gear skins and balancing crafting or something?

[Ohiuu]

They could also dump the materia system and give crafted gear fixed stats, but allow them to be upgraded via esoterics and raid drops.

For example, crafted i180 pieces can be upgraded to i200 via tokens that cost the same esoterics as the piece being upgraded or to i210 via Gobcoat/twine/dip.

This opens a much needed third option for itemization, allows crafted weapons to be more than glamours, and removes the absurd gil sink materia requirement imposed on crafted gear.

Oh wait but they won't remove the materia system because something something FFVII.

Dumping the materia system wouldn't be necessary so long as they implement intelligent stat caps, for instance, capping primary stats on the right side and giving goldsmiths their accessories back before the patch after left side comes out. Materia also helps the economy by giving adventurers something to farm for (add in some kind of tome/dungeon mats they can farm as well and people will actually be able to buy the stuff we make). Only problem atm is that there is no demand for battle materia due to the lack of viable crafted gear. In regards to upgrading the crafted set with esoterics I find this concept interesting but would likely never be implemented due to the fear of it overshadowing the upcoming "CT" type raid. It would really be nice to feel like crafting was relevant to end-gamers however, and I think something like savage drops being crafted into i210 horizontal equivalents with different stat spreads or even armor kits like WoW had (a consumable that would permanently add a minor amount of stats to a piece of gear). They fear that this would prevent access but so long as it wasn't necessary to actually progress it would simply be something to drive a robust economy and create choices for players. Also, the desire to progress and have bigger and better is what drives most players...regardless of how far they actually progress...so give us something to fight for outside of our weekly raid clear.