What makes WHM special? Nothing anymore.

[Xyth]

Snip.

I understand that, but these people that leveled all 3 healers, with hands on experience with savage holds much more weight. They give examples, explain the differences in what each healer excels at or lacks at. I would certainly hold these statements to be much more valid.

I only have WHM leveled to 50 - and don't have SCH leveled at all, but I have a SCH buddy who I compare numbers with on a daily. Does it make my opinion any better than those that actually have them leveled?

Fact is, any opinion on here is just an opinion. But any opinion with backup has more credibility.

[ViDare]

On the contrary, some1 with all classes leveled tend to to hell less knowledge than someone who didint, that is the flaw of the multiple class system this game has, it encourages casual play. Its easier to make an assesment if you pushed your class to the limits and mastered it to almost perfection than someone who leveled all 3 but isint even taking 50% advantage of the kit. If i was a master monk pushing my class to the outmost boundries of dps, it would be easier for me to tell wht thae class is lacking / what other dps classes have over mine comapred to someone who plays nin/drg/mnk but is doing sub par dps.

This right here is what i was talking about, you have someone without all the classes leveled making inaccurate statements who refuses to see logic from people who are far more experienced. I'm sorry but having one class leveled even if you have mastered it to perfection doesn't make you an expert on how other classes work.

[SenzorialBoundries]

Yeah, seriously, who would EVER want to be identified as the best healer in the game?

Did you ever play WoW , its very similar to WoW imho, now look at holy priest, quite close to WHM , now compare it to Disc priest Holy pally resto druid , shammies , and hw monks. They are on the bottom end of the viability list, because unlike the others they offer close to no utility, BUT even so people will still take a skilled holy priest over any unskilled disc preist or holy pally.

[RichardButte]

The point being made is not that experience doesn't count, the point is being made that most people are using that as their sole proof that what they're saying is true. People often have to resort to that when they can't defend what they're saying with something objective. Taking something slightly ridiculous to make the point, if a person with whm only leveled said "scholar shields don't block damage they just have weaker heals," I wouldn't have to respond saying "you don't have scholar leveled what would you know." Instead I could point to combat logs and tests showing that what they're saying in false and would never have to touch the issue of what jobs they have leveled.

People could point to reasons why you can't just look at potencies and nothing else, or other more objective information and never once care what jobs a person has leveled. Instead they're spending page after page attacking the person not the argument.

No, because people like this aren't going to bother listening anyway. I know THAT because I listed everything WHM has over AST on page 4 of this goddamn thread and no one noticed:

-an AoE that heals everyone for 300, damages all enemies for 300 AND restores 10% of mana
-a 30% boost to healing power for 15 sec on a minute CD (which boosts HoTs, unlike AST's Synastry)
-a bubble that doesn't require channeling
-E4E
-Virus
-a mana restoring ability that reduces aggro immediately instead of just reducing aggro generated while it's active
-not one but TWO instant-cast heals that restore a crapton of HP (one restores ALL HP, while the other is 700 potency)
-an instant HoT with 150 potency (as opposed to AST's 140) which lasts for 21 seconds as opposed to 18 seconds and costs less mana (618 vs. AST's 707)
-the far more important MND party buff instead of PIE

If someone dropped a big pile of math in this thread, explaining exactly why WHM is still head and shoulders above AST in healing potency, would the Whine Mages actually change their mind?

Would they say, "Oh, seeing that math proves that I'm mistaken. I guess everything is fine after all and I'm complaining for nothing.", or would they just go, "DURRRRR, THAT DOSENT PROOVE NE THING!!11!1111!!!" (even though it completely smashes their argument into tiny, itty bitty pieces)?

My bet is on the latter.

I've played AST and SCH side by side for months. I KNOW what each class can handle and what their differences are. I KNOW that AST still isn't as potent at healing as a SCH, and if they're not as potent as a SCH, how the HELL are they as potent as a WHM?!

SE has the numbers on this. They're NOT making uninformed decisions. They know where they need to put AST so it's both viable and balanced, and WHM has not been stripped of the "best healer in the game" title, not by a long shot...

Let me put it this way: if a WHM loses their raid spot to an AST, it's not because AST is OP, it's because they were a TERRIBLE WHM and the raid leader was looking for a way to replace that scrub and is using the AST buffs as an excuse...

Did you ever play WoW , its very similar to WoW imho, now look at holy priest, quite close to WHM , now compare it to Disc priest Holy pally resto druid , shammies , and hw monks. They are on the bottom end of the viability list, because unlike the others they offer close to no utility, BUT even so people will still take a skilled holy priest over any unskilled disc preist or holy pally.

As a matter of fact, I played Disc priest through Cata and MoP, and the reason why Disc was valued over Holy was because a properly specced Disc priest could do the most healing in the group WHILE still doing 50-75% of the DPS of an actual DPS (and a decent one at that).

Also, Blizzard could never make up its damn mind on whether or not they liked fights that forced players to spread out or fights where they wanted players to cluster together, so they just kind of jumped all over the place in boss design. The healers with smaller but more potent AoE heals did great when they could cluster, but Disc priest was AMAZING any other time because it excelled at healing players who were spread out all over the damn place.

[Lastelli]

*A class that buffs other players and makes the fight end faster, has a better raid oh crap moment cooldown on the move, and casts faster and has a lower GCD
*A class that provides around ~3% more healing and nothing else really.

1 - AST has no better "raid oh crap moment cd on the move". I guess you're talking about lightspeed here. Lightspeed doesn't lower your gcd. If you use it as a "oh crap cd", you'll have your party die in the next 5 seconds because: 1) it takes time to activate and then heal (if you have an emergency, by the time lightspeed is active the situation will only be worse), an instant skill is much more valuable (i.e. assize or tetra/dignity) and 2) your healing throughput is not increased. Sure, it can work as a way to cast while moving, but this is not necessary. The best thing about LS is that it lowers mana consumption and this is very useful if you have to "main heal" parts of alex savage (in A1S for instance, when the big aoe+prey+tank buster it can be very useful or in other big aoe situations). Having said that, the only skill an AST has that can be considered as a oh crap skill is ED. WHM has Benediction (oh crap skill by definition), assize (almost too good to be true) and Tetra (most of the times it will be better than ED, unless you're always waiting for your tanks or other members to be at 20% HP left or lower before using it...not so convenient. In practice ED is like tetra, only more tricky to use and with a lower cd). Also, PoM >>>>>>Lightspeed.
2 - CU cannot be used as freely as Asylum. It's only useful in very specific cases where your party is gathered togheter. You'll use asylum 6-7 times during an encounter, almost every time it's available, CU probably 2 or 3 (this depends on mechanics, in A3S CU is better than Asylum, in A2S it's next to useless).
3 - the 3% boost is in no way the only thing a WHM provides, this has been talked already, people have written very detailed posts explaining why WHM is, in fact, still a better option and why AST buffs are still unrealiable and their actual utility is very limited, even using some simple mathematical tools and comparing how they affect you party dps on average vs what other healers can do to help with dps.

AST's big thing was it had faster but slightly weaker single target heals which was pretty balanced considering they get 5% haste or 5% strength to their heals.

Here's the fallacy. You're comparing potencies of a few skills and sect bonus to the equivalent skills of a WHM while completely forgetting that a WHM has more tools to heal. It has cure 3, DS on a very short cd, PoM, Assize, Benediction, way stronger dps skills, Shroud of saints is just so much better than LA for aggro management and on top of all these things, it also provides the mnd bonus to the pt.

AST still is the weakest healer in the game, but at least now it's an option.

[Jerichai]

Snip

The problem is that many people responding here are in attack mode, choosing to instead spread animosity rather than providing facts and explanations to help disprove some of these false claims. You can hate uninformed opinions all you want, but to think they'll just go away cause you want them to is naive. If it was that easy, politics would be in a much better place in any modern government.

It would be nice if those with experience could take threads like these as an opportunity to concisely explain things. Sadly is seems many, though not all, want to come into these which only serve to draw further lines in the sand.

[Assirra]

Did you ever play WoW , its very similar to WoW imho, now look at holy priest, quite close to WHM , now compare it to Disc priest Holy pally resto druid , shammies , and hw monks. They are on the bottom end of the viability list, because unlike the others they offer close to no utility, BUT even so people will still take a skilled holy priest over any unskilled disc preist or holy pally.

I disagree there.
A disc priest is basically a must and unless you are a holy priest god like Jhazrun, you will be forced to go disc.
Disc priests are so utterly broken in WoW it is not even funny.

[Lastelli]

The problem is that many people responding here are in attack mode, choosing to instead spread animosity rather than providing facts and explanations to help disprove some of these false claims. You can hate uninformed opinions all you want, but to think they'll just go away cause you want them to is naive. If it was that easy, politics would be in a much better place in any modern government.

It would be nice if those with experience could take threads like these as an opportunity to concisely explain things. Sadly is seems many, though not all, want to come into these which only serve to draw further lines in the sand.

Facts were provided, explanations given, more than once or twice. People now are just whining for the sake of whining and it's no surprise that this whining usually come from uninformed people that proved (more than once or twice) that they don't even know how AST skills work.

[Kosmos992k]

You all keep acting like they nerfed whm. They didn't, and it's still the highest hps healer. Quit crying.

The 50% drop in potency of Protect and StoneSkin for WHM begs to differ with you on that score. Cutting the potency or effectiveness of those two skills more than qualifies as a nerf.

You know, I had written this long post trying to discuss the power healing and potency of various skills, but then I realized that isn't the main issue here. The OP is talking about lost identity, and most of the replies countering the OP are talking about numbers, and intricacies of skill sets, raid utility and that's not really the point.

To me the point is this (and I am not addressing raid content);

WHM has lost it's identity as the stoic power healer with strong protective abilities. The two primary protective abilities are available to several other jobs and the WHM lost almost 50% of the potency of the moves meaning everyone else can cast them as well as the WHM. In most (all?) non raid settings, AST and SCH are more than sufficient for the task at hand, none of the healers really have any issue in non raid content. So what is there about WHM that makes them stand out in normal play?

The loss of identity is actually pretty clear. Losing both Granite Skin and ProShell stripped two aspects of what made WHM different in regular content. In that kind of content, the AST has their globe and Deck O'Wonder, and the Scholar has their Faeries, WHM has a big stick. No pet, no cards and really no 'hook'. I don't really understand why people think that it's acceptable, or should be, for CNJ/WHM to lose the Granite Skin and Proshell traits, when those have been core abilities for WHM & CNJ throughout ARR.

In pre 50 content, one of the hooks for CNJ/WHM and THM/BLM was the option to pick up a physical shield, but when the only 1H weapons for WHM at level 50+ cap out at ilvl 100, and there are no shields even remotely close to that ilvl, the hook of a caster with additional survivability is gone.

When I look at it as I move into HW content as WHM, I can't use a wand/shield combination, Granite Skin and Proshell are gone, and the other two healers can keep up in any normal content, in addition to having their uniqueness and hook intact. It makes me a sad neko.

I don't care about the theorycrafted power heals fo WHM vs the others, I don't care about raid utility. I just want to play Paladin and White Mage, and have fun. Give me my bloody shield back and I'll stop worrying so much about the loss of Granite Skin and Proshell because the shield will (should) provide me with better survivability that the other healers.

I'd say the same for giving the shield back to BLM/THM as well, I think it was a great option for CNJ/THM and BLM/WHM to be able to use a 1H weapon and shield exchanging some weapon potency for useful defense. I guess that would be too much like horizontal progression though, so it's unlikely to happen....in which case, restore the traits Granite Skin and ProShell. Except, I know that won't happen either. Oh, the sad neko face is back...

Indeed. Everything special about the class was either taken away or imitated. Although I would Argue WHM is special because it can use Physical Shields like a Paladin... TAKE THAT SCH AND AST! ONLY MAGIC SHIELDS FOR YOU!

Except how many 1h weapons are there at ilvl105+? None. WHM can't use a physical shield any more than SCH or AST can once you get past level 49. There is zero point even talking about shield use by WHM (or BLM) unless SE makes some one handed weapons and shields with ilvl in the same ranges as the rest of the new gear.

I understand that, but these people that leveled all 3 healers, with hands on experience with savage holds much more weight. They give examples, explain the differences in what each healer excels at or lacks at. I would certainly hold these statements to be much more valid.

Except that really doesn't address the loss of identity, that addresses the relative power and utility of each job in a raid. What the OP is (I think) talking about, and so many are missing, is that the identity is like the flavor of food, and WHM has lost some of that flavor.

Let's say you can choose between a great Steak, incredible BBQ or a melt in your mouth Tandoori Chicken. Each of these dishes will sustain your body in almost the same manner, but each is unique and has it's own flavor. Now imagine that the steak was not flame grilled, just grilled on a flat-top and was no longer seasoned with as much salt and pepper when grilling. Now the Steak has lost a lot of it's flavor.

It's about the loss of the uniqueness and identity, the flavor that the job had has been diluted.

[ViDare]

The problem is that many people responding here are in attack mode, choosing to instead spread animosity rather than providing facts and explanations to help disprove some of these false claims. You can hate uninformed opinions all you want, but to think they'll just go away cause you want them to is naive. If it was that easy, politics would be in a much better place in any modern government.

It would be nice if those with experience could take threads like these as an opportunity to concisely explain things. Sadly is seems many, though not all, want to come into these which only serve to draw further lines in the sand.

more than one person has offered explanations on why the classes are still balanced and not a single class is overpowered but the people who are uninformed will continue to deny it because they feel the need to be treated like a special snowflake