Please let BRDs use Empyrean Arrow and Iron Jaws outside of Wanderer's Minuet

[Rafaelhades]

Right now, like I've mentioned, WM is functionally the exact, same skill as machinist's GB, except bard is not a machinist. And because their gameplay is centered/influenced by this skill, their overall gameplay is similar to each other, but only one was ever designed in it with mind. There's very few conceptual differences between the two classes (can you really say sidewinder is different from ricochet as far as functionality is concerned? What about DoT upkeep and buff upkeep?), which can partly be at fault of machinist not having a very innovative ammo system either.

I see this thrown around a lot here, but after experiencing both playstyles, I'm inclined to believe BRD actually feels more "at home" in WM than MCH does in GB. Maybe it's due to Iron Jaws being such an excellent skill or BL resetting more often than getting all 3 shots to proc outside of Reload. WM felt "clunky" at first but when you let go of the OCD "must BL all the time every time it's up," it started to feel more fluid.

[Snowaeth]

I see this thrown around a lot here, but after experiencing both playstyles, I'm inclined to believe BRD actually feels more "at home" in WM than MCH does in GB. Maybe it's due to Iron Jaws being such an excellent skill or BL resetting more often than getting all 3 shots to proc outside of Reload. WM felt "clunky" at first but when you let go of the OCD "must BL all the time every time it's up," it started to feel more fluid.

I'm loving how pretty much every argument about issues in WM comes down to people telling to. Let go, ignore, avoid, don't do it and others have to deal with same issues.
Why do people prefer a flawed job over a polished one? I mean I'm not debating that BRD is unplayable right now, or that it can't perform, but why would you not want the skills to be more streamlined for how it plays now?

[RiceisNice]

I see this thrown around a lot here, but after experiencing both playstyles, I'm inclined to believe BRD actually feels more "at home" in WM than MCH does in GB. Maybe it's due to Iron Jaws being such an excellent skill or BL resetting more often than getting all 3 shots to proc outside of Reload. WM felt "clunky" at first but when you let go of the OCD "must BL all the time every time it's up," it started to feel more fluid.

Depends on what you mean by "feel more at home". MCH I have a very natural flow going on when it comes to executing my skills, and it always stays consistent. I can catch off procs as soon as they pop, and anytime I do miss slug shot proc by using another split shot, that's all on me.

Bard on the other hand, I cannot catch SS procs without purposely delaying my weapon skill beyond the standard 2.5 seconds. And while you say that you're not inclined to keep bloodletter off cooldown, the matter of fact is that you do want to keep it off cooldown, losing any resets is a straight dps loss. If you don't want to do that, then that's fine if you're not trying to cutting edge progression, but the fact also remains is that it's rendering one of your core passives in 2.0 moot, which is still terrible design. If I do try to catch bloodletter as soon as it comes off cooldown (or resets), I have occasions where I'm doubling up oGCDs (whether it be 2 bloodletters, or 1 + another skill), I have a break in my flow where I can't do anything for the next split second, even when my GCD is off cooldown.

[Rafaelhades]

I'm loving how pretty much every argument about issues in WM comes down to people telling to. Let go, ignore, avoid, don't do it and others have to deal with same issues.
Why do people prefer a flawed job over a polished one? I mean I'm not debating that BRD is unplayable right now, or that it can't perform, but why would you not want the skills to be more streamlined for how it plays now?

And I love how aggressive people get over having their opinions be more valid than other people's. Note that I stated how it felt to ME. Nowhere did I state "get good" in my post. The fact that mine was based on my point of view and not "matter of fact" like yours is. You think it's flawed? Good for you. It doesn't for me. Your opinion isn't any more valid than mine. I'd say let go of the ego.

[Rafaelhades]

Bard on the other hand, I cannot catch SS procs without purposely delaying my weapon skill beyond the standard 2.5 seconds. And while you say that you're not inclined to keep bloodletter off cooldown, the matter of fact is that you do want to keep it off cooldown, losing any resets is a straight dps loss. If you don't want to do that, then that's fine if you're not trying to cutting edge progression, but the fact also remains is that it's rendering one of your core passives in 2.0 moot, which is still terrible design.

I'm not saying not to BL when it's up or to never keep it off cd. I'm saying the OCD mentality that starts to give people anxiety when they can't BL -right away-. I take my BRD into Alex Savage as much as I take my MCH (not so much more now that I bought Ferdinand). Maybe it's because I find myself popping out of GB far more often than I do WM, or that when you inevitably hit that string of no procs on MCH while BRD gets near constant BL procs. Just how I see it.

[RiceisNice]

I'm not saying not to BL when it's up or to never keep it off cd. I'm saying the OCD mentality that starts to give people anxiety when they can't BL -right away-. I take my BRD into Alex Savage as much as I take my MCH (not so much more now that I bought Ferdinand). Maybe it's because I find myself popping out of GB far more often than I do WM, or that when you inevitably hit that string of no procs on MCH while BRD gets near constant BL procs. Just how I see it.

Well it's not a matter of getting the procs persay, it's catching and using it. No amount of reactive speed on my end will ever allow me to catch straighter shot procs because they don't work very well and detect in time when under the effects of WM. The bloodletter reset causes those frequent disconnect when you have to double up oGCDs to use it; because for all you know, I could use bloodletter right after a weaponskill and all is well, but the fragmented weaving starts happening when the reset either occurs after I used an oGCD like blunt arrow, empyreal or sidewinder, or right after my previous bloodletter.

[Snowaeth]

And I love how aggressive people get over having their opinions be more valid than other people's. Note that I stated how it felt to ME. Nowhere did I state "get good" in my post. The fact that mine was based on my point of view and not "matter of fact" like yours is. You think it's flawed? Good for you. It doesn't for me. Your opinion isn't any more valid than mine. I'd say let go of the ego.

Agressive? I'd say you'r being that more than I am, but sure changing things around for the sake of your argument is nothing new in these topics.

Lets see, you point out this: "at first but when you let go of the OCD "must BL all the time every time it's up," it started to feel more fluid" ignoring a core mechanic of the class to make it more fluid. This is also ignoring the fact that there is room for 1 ogcd without cutting into gcd and BL is based on RNG, so use BL and any buff that was up will cut into gcd, use a buff and any BL reset will cut into GCD. Don't use BL and it can reset before you fire it off. What I'm saying has actual constructive issues backing it up rather than, this is how I feel.

Lets look at Repelling Shot, you use this skill just before a GCD that GCD is going to be cancelled out for you, surely we can play around this by delaying that GCD or not using this after HS and suddenly it's not flawed, because we once again ignore/avoid the issue.

Lets look at straight shot proc's oh you had to renew SS after this HS and it proc'd mid cast and now you'r casting SS even though it did proc. Sure you can play around that and use up that proc later, but if you have to HS next, you have to use up the proc anyway without keeping it, thus having to double SS in a row where the first one thus was unnecessary, a dps loss and a tp loss. But sure if we ignore that it's not flawed.

There's more but this stuff been said over and over before already that I don't plan on typing every issue once more.

Notice how every of those issues are non issues, if you ignore them.

So yes I do say it's flawed because I actually have constructive issues to present rather than I feel it's not flawed because I ignore the issues.

[RinchanNau]

It's not any less fluid just because you can't double oGCD. You don't double oGCD on MNK either. Say IR and Elixir Field come off CD at the same time. You still use 1 between each GCD or you're delaying GCDs. Same applies to some of the other jobs. Just because 2.0 BRD could easily double oGCD doesn't mean 3.0 BRD w/ WM up isn't as fluid because of only being able to use 1 oGCD between each GCD outside of Straighter Shot procs.

[Rafaelhades]

Well it's not a matter of getting the procs persay, it's catching and using it. No amount of reactive speed on my end will ever allow me to catch straighter shot procs because they don't work very well and detect in time when under the effects of WM. The bloodletter reset causes those frequent disconnect when you have to double up oGCDs to use it; because for all you know, I could use bloodletter right after a weaponskill and all is well, but the fragmented weaving starts happening when the reset either occurs after I used an oGCD like blunt arrow, empyreal or sidewinder, or right after my previous bloodletter.

I agree with that. Although, I tend to just delay the second BL to tack it on at the end of the HS just to get the GCD rolling or if I know I'd need to move in the next 3 secs. Honest question: is that a significant amount of DPS loss over another option?

[Rafaelhades]

snip

Actually, your post has more of an aggressive tone than mine. Significantly more. In fact, it has this tone of superiority that assumes anyone you're conversing with is a lesser being simply for disagreeing.

Yea it's been beaten to death and everyone is sick of hearing it or discussing it. All the horse beating isn't changing anything.

Repelling shot: I've never had an issue with it. Use it then wait a fraction of a second. Cast is not interrupted.

Straight Shot proc: You're not using the proc for the crit? How is it different from 2.0? You SS when it falls off then go to Heavy. Heavy procs right away and you have to SS again even though you just used it.

Actually, you and a lot of others who have stated that BRD is flawed have been going off of "feeling" just like the people who have been fine with BRD. The issue has mainly been the way the job "felt" and not any hard numbers, as you, yourself, have stated that BRD can perform and is not unplayable. Does it need a little more QoL adjustments? Sure. So do all the other jobs. But "flawed" denotes that it is in a bad state until otherwise fixed.