Something need to be done about BAD DPS.

[Ryel]

So just - stop this whining about DPS already. It's bloody annoying. Bloody annoying to see thread after thread after thread popping up about this. Trust me, I could create threads about dumb tanks and awful healers as well, and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one. Yet you don't see those festering on p1 on a pretty much daily basis.

Well actually, you do.

There are tons of threads about bad tanks or the STR versus VIT debate, or about whether or not healers are contributing DPS in content, but as said before countless times in countless threads there are a number of issues at play here.

The first issue is transparency:

It's easy to see when a tank or a healer makes a mistake; lack of cool-down usage, poor MP management, improper boss positioning, lack of hate control, lack of outgoing heals, the list goes on and on. It's generally easy to see and communicate when a tank or a healer performs poorly in content as more often than not one or both playing poorly instantly equals the end of the run. And as far as the community is concerned it's pretty much okay to call them out for their mistakes.

I'm sure any career tank or healer who has done content long enough can tell you there is no shortage of people ready to offer their opinion about how you're playing your job;

"STR jewelry? why not VIT?"
"VIT jewelry? Why not STR?"
"Why are you speed running this!?"
"Why aren't you speed running this!?"
"Why are you DPSing!?"
"Why aren't you DPSing!?"
"My static says it needs to be tanked this way!?"
"The YouTube video doesn't do it that way at all, why are you tanking it that way!?"

The list goes on and on, and in some of these cases the complaints can be completely justified, the point is however is the level of transparency is not the same for a DPS. In reality as long as a DPS simply doesn't die via eating too many AoE attacks and generally stays in the right positions you have no way of knowing whether or not they're actually contributing sufficient DPS. To your eyes it may look like their DoTs are applied full time, but are they executing their combo properly in addition to that? is the MNK properly maintaining stacks? Is the NIN getting the most out of their ninjutsu?

I'm sure someone will try to make the point about watching the enmity meter but Quelling Strikes and Elusive Jump would like a word with you.

So exactly how can you tell which DPS are pulling their weight and which ones genuinely need a helping hand with content? You can't, which leads us to the second issue.

The game gives players no incentive to become more proficient with their jobs:

What does this mean?

The MSQ for the most part is designed and tuned in a way that by simply acquiring level appropriate gear and playing at a basic skill level that players will eventually make it from one point to the other, and this is perfectly fine as it's main purpose is to tell you a story and let you enjoy the ride. It really doesn't offer you any challenges to overcome, at least not ones that are extremely difficult when geared correctly, there was a time that it did but then people complained that it was too hard and well... here we are.

Everything after this however is optional as far as content goes, and usually requires a level of gear and skill that are above what the MSQ has to offer. The performance requirements shoot up substantially from those at the end of the MSQ without a metric for DPS to actually measure themselves by to know if they are prepared or playing at a level appropriate for it. It's easy to tell if you have enough HP to survive attacks or if you're capable of healing a party (usually) but out of 4 DPS in the party how do you know which ones are holding their own?

No measurements tools and no accountability gives DPS no incentive to learn to output more damage, and why should they? Especially if they aren't aware that they're putting out sub par damage to begin with. In addition if players struggle on content for a long enough time the echo is eventually added to aid them which means that players won't actually care about trying to get any better because the game is essentially telling them that there isn't any need, the effort will simply be wasted when content is brought down to their level regardless of if they do or not.

So players can't tell if they need to get better, and the game gives them no reason to try and improve, but surely a collection of their peers would be more than willing to offer them advice and help them correct?

Well...

The Western approach to the Duty Finder:

This is where things get... interesting.

See there are two different schools of thought when it comes to the Duty Finder:

The first is that of the Japanese playerbase, a playerbase that almost exclusively uses the Duty Finder as a means of clearing content, where most people who queue in are already proficient in their jobs and practiced in battle strategy from making parties in the Party Finder. for them it's generally considered bad form to just jump into the Duty Finder blind and place the burden on the rest of the party to not only take the time to teach you the content as the newcomer but in some cases how to play your job as well. That isn't to say it doesn't happen obviously but it's less often the case.

This is in contrast to the western approach to the Duty Finder, where a large number of players are happy to just jump in blind due to the fact that the odds are low that you will ever end up with any of these other players again, a large portion of the population doesn't really care about how well they do as long as they can see and practice the fights and have no issue even if that means they are the reason it's taking 60 minutes to clear a 10 minute encounter. Some of these players then get upset that the fight wasn't properly explained to them or don't even have a basic understanding of how many of their own classes' abilities work (didn't read the tool tips). And in most cases if criticism is offered it doesn't really end well.

See the difference there?

There's also this.. aversion a large number of players have to making party finder groups for learning, many of them commonly stating that no existing groups are already in the PF list, or that the requirements stated by OTHER groups are too high or punishing so they get discouraged from joining a group rather than just... making their own.

So back into the DF they go, and then more threads like this are made.

Players that understand these issues are the ones asking for an In game measure of player performance, a parsing add-on, a scorecard at the end of a raid or dungeon, anything the devs can do to help players improve in an environment that is constantly setting raid DPS as the wall for completing content.

It's why you see and will continue to see this being a hot topic for quite some time, especially so when endgame is and will continue to be DPS check based.

But there's always this last issue...

Player harassment:

This is the internet, and being as such there will always be people who will use whatever they can to be jerks to one another if given the opportunity. However they already do this, from glamours to job choices to which minion is better (It's the Gaelikitten btw if you disagree you are wrong, end of story) the point being is that player harassment should not prevent enriching the game experience.

We've got an awesome staff of GM's just sitting there waiting to hand out some ban hammers (ban axes? ban greatswords? why do we have no hammer users?) let them deal with player disputes by giving them a GM call should people try to abuse each other.

Who knows some players might enjoy finding out there's more they can do on their jobs, or that they might be performing better than they initially thought.

[Neuflune]

The Western approach to the Duty Finder:

I play in a Japanese data center and when I get in a J party, it's normal for people to say "初見です！" if they are new, and the party asks if they need any help with the mechanics, stuff like that.

But when I get in an E party... there is a notice that someone is new and no one says anything. In one party, a dragoon obviously messed up every single thing. Another E player and I, when we saw the dragoon was E, literally asked "are you new? do you need pointers?". The other E player (not the dragoon), then proceeded to detail the mechanics of the fight. It was just a straight up instruction, no sarcasm or anything. The dragoon didn't reply once, didn't follow the instructions, and caused another wipe. We asked again if he needed anything explained... and then this is where it gets funny. Yet another E player said "this is why I hate E parties you're a bunch of elitists".

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?

[Teryaani]

That is not irrational, is already happening in dungeons, where a DPS who is not supposedly doing enough good according ot others is simply kicked out, when in fact as it has been said above, was doing more then the others, especialyl the tank that took all the aoes in the face expecting the Heals to heal him and when heal ran out of mana because well there is only so much you can do complained he died for ...lack of heals....so saying is irrational is wrong, if there is a parser it would be used and abused just about like the kick option is used and abused.

My wife and I had this happen in fractal. In the last fight the tank kept dragging the boss onto us to "help kill the adds" when the DRG and I were clearing the alarums fast. Doing so caused us to eat more damage and paralysis debuffs, causing the healer to go OOM and that combined with his inability to use a single defensive cooldown caused us to wipe.

His solution? Kick the healer obviously. So yeah, abuse is already there.

A parser on the dummy would be great, a parser in the game is a double edged sword. On one hand you could see when someone was just auto-attacking. On the other you could have a situation where the DF group's expectations are overdone for the content.

I play in a Japanese data center and when I get in a J party, it's normal for people to say "初見です！" if they are new, and the party asks if they need any help with the mechanics, stuff like that.

But when I get in an E party... there is a notice that someone is new and no one says anything. In one party, a dragoon obviously messed up every single thing. Another E player and I, when we saw the dragoon was E, literally asked "are you new? do you need pointers?". The other E player (not the dragoon), then proceeded to detail the mechanics of the fight. It was just a straight up instruction, no sarcasm or anything. The dragoon didn't reply once, didn't follow the instructions, and caused another wipe. We asked again if he needed anything explained... and then this is where it gets funny. Yet another E player said "this is why I hate E parties you're a bunch of elitists".

I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a problem of newer players not looking at the chat log. I've seen the same behavior happening more often recently in DF groups.

[Eli85]

Something needs to be done, but what is the solution? It's not so simple as you might think.

There have been MMOs with parsers, detailed instructions, and dungeon simulation. None of these solve the 'bad player' problem. I've done the guild and raid lead thing before, and even with supposed 'better and geared players' there are legions of players who are unprepared, do not do research, and just stink at the game. I really believe the issue really is cultural, and specific to North America.

Whether we like it or not, western MMO players tolerate poor play and say, "it's OK, it's a play style and you're free to embrace it." Until as a culture we shame these players more, make it clear that subpar play is not acceptable, nothing will ever change.

To be clear, I don't mean someone who does a little bit less than the top DPS and people say "lols you're bad." I'm talking about the ice mages, the dot-less and garuda-less summoners, the 'I don't need a fairy' scholars, the auto-attackers and afkers. Far too often we say, "you pay your own 15 bucks a month, you can play the game however you want." Then these people come into groups and don't understand the problem, then the players who are doing the best we can, get frustrated. So you then say, "Ok, let's find someone new," and the problem becomes these terrible players outnumber the good players way too much. It's why people run and hide into statics, as if no one else but their static exists on the servers.

Basically, nothing is going to change. We need to alter our culture way too much from coddling alternate play styles to poor play is not acceptable in any circumstances. Get into your statics and linkshells, and hope there are enough good players there so you can enjoy the content.

edit:

Just to add, I am someone that would love more widespread parsers. In a trial or raid, will it make rotation errors go away? Heavens no! But you know what it does? It lets you spot the bad player instantly. If I'm in a group and I see a DPS below tanks and healers, then I know if the player doesn't get replaced, it's nothing but wipes. Parsers saves you time and headaches.

[Teryaani]

Until as a culture we shame these players more, make it clear that subpar play is not acceptable, nothing will ever change.

Two problems:
1) the chance it will drive away subs mean that there is no way it'll fly with Square.
2) It won't work even for the players who don't leave. My inlaws played WoW with us and no amount of tutoring from us or people in instances reading them the riot act changed their behavior. There are some players who simply don't care and nothing will fix that. If politely giving advice doesn't work, walk away. All shaming will do is earn you a possible GM action.

I'm talking about the ice mages,

Yeah, hate those too. "I never run out of mana!" Yeah, but the boss never dies either.

garuda-less summoners,

HEY! I use Ifrit most of the time.

[Eli85]

Two problems:
1) the chance it will drive away subs mean that there is no way it'll fly with Square.
2) It won't work even for the players who don't leave. My inlaws played WoW with us and no amount of tutoring from us or people in instances reading them the riot act changed their behavior. There are some players who simply don't care and nothing will fix that. If politely giving advice doesn't work, walk away. All shaming will do is earn you a possible GM action.

The sub issue is most definitely tied to this problem. A developer doesn't want to lose players, but they don't want to frustrate their players either. It's why Blizzard did the tourist mode LFR. It didn't fix the bad player problem completely, but it kept some of the bads out of higher tier content.

Shaming probably wasn't the right word, too, particularly in light of MMO communities. 'Frowned upon' would be the better phrase. In other words, create a culture where failing horribly is something truly embarrassing.

Your anecdote is all too common. I've seen it a lot as well, and I can never understand it. Lacking the drive to be better, no matter what it is, is something I'll never get.

[Teryaani]

Your anecdote is all too common. I've seen it a lot as well, and I can never understand it. Lacking the drive to be better, no matter what it is, is something I'll never get.

Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I admit that I'm not as diligent as I should be with CDs like raging strikes (normally only in the first part of the fight unless I'm really on the ball) and the like, but I try to keep enochian up long enough for it to cooldown. I accept that there is an upper limit to how fast/aware I am but I try and I agree that it's weird to not want to get better.

Isn't failing horribly already truly embarrassing?

For some of us, yeah it is. Trust me when I say that when that git kicked the healer, she (said healer) spent the next 10 minutes asking "was it me?". Only after we queued again and with a less geared tank we cleared the content without issue did she calm down.

because the BLM was using ley lines never

I'm so guilty of this. I pop it at the start of every boss fight and then I get a twinge of guilt when I see another BLM in the run use it again.

Stuff on the ground, stuff on the ground everywhere!

"SICKNESS MUST BE PURGED!"