WAR love is out of hand. Twelve forbid the other Tanks stand out in any way.

[karateorangutang]

@phoenecia

I can't quote because of phone power. I'm not able to play all three currently but out of our static I am gonna cover war because others don't want to deal with it cause it is a "touchier" tank. In our case we lack a stable nin on our group so a war is more important to us. I fully agree that the other tanks bring something to the table. That's why we bring war/pld or war/drk.

I just feel like people are ignoring issue because they like a job. Why not enjoy your favorite job more?

[Airswimmer]

I would say you ignored that Inner Beast can do the exact same thing as well as heal you for quite a bit

Great; except, Inner Beast is only 20% mitigation, and the only other mitigation cooldown for magical damage WAR has is Vengeance which can only be up for every other tank buster, assuming the tank buster comes every 1 minute. A DRK will have both Dark Mind and either Shadowskin or Shadow Wall up for the same tank buster. That self-heal from Inner Beast is great when you're using Inner Beast after the healers have topped you off for the incoming tank buster.

"Magic Tank"

Where did I argue this again?

That does put Paladin at a slight disadvantage...

And who was arguing otherwise? All tanks are capable in each fight in each role while some tanks excel in certain encounters in certain roles. It's the same for every role in every encounter, and those preferences change based on gear level and other factors.

[Naelle]

The problem is that no one is really suggesting any viable way to fix this supposed problem.

I only really see a few issues, but here's how I'd fix them:

Butcher's Block: Reduce potency to 260 from 280
Storm's Eye: Increase potency from 270 to 280

Why? A 10 potency swing in the negative will preserve all burst damage but slightly lower sustained DPS. Would the world end? This would also put their Enmity combo in the middle of their other two, same as Dark Knight.

Rage of Halone: Increase potency from 260 to 280
Provoke: Give it a trait to increase Enmity by roughly the amount of a Rage of Halone after the +1 Enmity effect.
Shield Swipe: Remove from the global cooldown and give it a 10 second cooldown.
Royal Authority: Lower potency from 340 to 330

Why? Currently Paladin has the worst single target Enmity and the worst snap Enmity. Increasing the potency by 10 on Rage of Halone would help increase it's Enmity generation as well as bring Paladin up slightly closer to the other tanks. Would they still have the lowest DPS? Yes. That's perfect. Provoke I think would be the easiest way to increase snap enmity without increasing DPS at all. Trait would be best, as to not give this to Warrior/Dark Knight, making the change pointless. Shield Swipe is just clunky to use. Having to stop your combo to use it in it's 3 second window (maybe more, feels short). This change would also increase single target enmity as MT only.

I personally like where Dark Knight is currently.

[Allyrion]

I would say you ignored that Inner Beast can do the exact same thing as well as heal you for quite a bit. It's still only one skill. That's not quite enough to pigeon whole them into "Magic Tank". That does put Paladin at a slight disadvantage in fights with all Magic damage, but that's called balance. Paladin is the clear winner in Physical fights, they shouldn't be the best in Magic also.

While not unique, Delirium exists.

It used to be that MNKs were required for the INT debuff. It helped they were top tier dps anyway, but that wouldn't secure a spot as much.
Now DRK brings the INT debuff and MNKs are only top DPS on a dummy and the gap is negligible with other melee's burst and less ramp-up.

So if your team doesn't have a MNK, DRK is pretty anti-magic.
Still not as anti-physical as PLD, though, but enough to be considered within that niche just by kit design.

[Carstien]

The reason DRK has been said to be preferred in fights with magic damage is because Dark Mind is on a 60 second cooldown. That means that Dark Mind, which can be buffed to mitigate 30% magical damage, can be up for every magical damage tank buster along with either a Shadowskin or Shadow Wall.
You seemed to ignore that idea.

Even there dark mind isn\\'t all its cracked up to be. 60 seconds is a great recast timer, but only if SE don\\'t throw a Twintania into the mix.

At release, death sentence was exactly how it was named. It spelled death for any tank that didn\\'t mitigate it. On a roughly 30 second timer. If they make Another and it is physical, dark knight will suffer. If it\\'s magical, Paladin will suffer most, dark knight will still have issues. Only war will have something they can use in either case.

I\\'m pro war, it being my main and all, but even I\\'m not gonna pretend that won\\'t be an issue.

[karateorangutang]

@Tila

Some interesting fixes have been suggested for pld. I'd be interested to take on a bigger support role. Buff cover for magic so it can help eat tank busters and boost healing potential. That would make it a good off tank and allow healers more dps time.

Lower slashing debuff to 5% and give it to all tanks and make it stackable.

There have been some great thoughts. Just not inn this thread lol.

[Naelle]

Great; except, Inner Beast is only 20% mitigation, and the only other mitigation cooldown for magical damage WAR has is Vengeance which can only be up for every other tank buster, assuming the tank buster comes every 1 minute. A DRK will have both Dark Mind and either Shadowskin or Shadow Wall up for the same tank buster. That self-heal from Inner Beast is great when you're using Inner Beast after the healers have topped you off for the incoming tank buster.


Where did I argue this again?


And who was arguing otherwise? All tanks are capable in each fight in each role while some tanks excel in certain encounters in certain roles. It's the same for every role in every encounter, and those preferences change based on gear level and other factors.

Not sure why you're getting so defensive, nothing I said was directed at you specifically. A 10% difference in mitigation is not broken, it's balanced in other places. What frustrates me is the community keeps referring to Dark Knight as the magic tank more and more. Yes, they're slightly better equipped to deal with big magic busters, but that doesn't mean they're the only ones that can survive. Also, if you want to quote me please use the whole quote:

That does put Paladin at a slight disadvantage in fights with all Magic damage, but that's called balance. Paladin is the clear winner in Physical fights, they shouldn't be the best in Magic also.

[Phoenicia]

Nobody wants Warrior to be nerfed. Nobody is trying to take away your precious MT role that you covet so. If you want balance you need this:

Offense:

Warrior: 3
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 1

Defense:

Warrior: 1
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 3

Sadly, that's not what we have. We're closer to:

Offense:

Warrior: 4
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 1

Defense:

Warrior: 2
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 3

...Are there any of that for WAR?

Ignoring the mechanics of how classes' CDs work on their own or with each other and their practicality is exactly the wrong way to do this.


Check my post here where I provided actual numbers showing the mitigation difference in terms of effective HP and class mechanics. I'll quickly rehash here.

For EHP calculations, tanks are "assumed" to be in their Defensive stance, so I will not multiply base HP by 1.25. Feel free to inflate those numbers by doing that yourself though, it'll only widen the gaps.

DRK is EXACTLY on par with WAR in terms of DPS but they need WAR or NIN for the slashing debuff. DRK is largely ahead of the other tanks in magic because their single magic resistance CD is so short and so potent it can be coupled with every other CD for massive EHP returns (up to a massively high 255% of their base HP and roughly 50~70% more effective HP compared to any of the other tanks). DRK is behind in terms of physical resistance by about 70% base HP due to no reliable ways to handle it outside of its 2 basic and long CDs compared to the other tanks. Dodge does not work against bosses and 30% parry chance is far too low to even hope for it to count. Reprisal? It's nice if it happens.

PLD is slightly behind WAR in terms of DPS (~100 DPS difference) band they need WAR or NIN for the slashing debuff. PLD is definitely ahead of the other tanks in terms of utility. PLD can "force" blocks to a relatively, but not completely, reliable way to pull ahead of its peers in Physical resistance. PLD is fully capable of handling magic fights (up to 207% of its normal HP) but loses potential 20~30% EHP in magical environment and is roughly 40% behind DRK in terms of EHP.

WAR "couples" CDs (and they have great synergy) to achieve levels similar to PLD in both physical and magical environments (pulling 7% EHP ahead of PLD actually) but is behind in Effective healing by 4%~20% based on how heals received (spells vs abilities). WAR provides its own slashing debuff. WAR has nice utility in the form of Storm Path. WAR, like PLD, loses potential 20% EHP in terms of losing parry in a magical environment. WAR has the most practical self-heals.

So by your rating:
Offense:
WAR: 3
DRK: 3
PLD: 2

Defense:
PLD: 3
WAR: 3
DRK: 1 in physical, 4 in magical.

Utility:
PLD: 3
WAR: 2
DRK: 0 <---- THIS is an actual problem.

In terms of mitigation there is a sense of balance with DRK slightly out of place. In terms of DPS classes are perfectly fine imo. In terms of Utility, DRK needs serious attention.

[Freyyy]

This would also put their Enmity combo in the middle of their other two, same as Dark Knight.

In fact, DRK's enmity combo is their lowest.

[Naelle]

While not unique, Delirium exists.

It used to be that MNKs were required for the INT debuff. It helped they were top tier dps anyway, but that wouldn't secure a spot as much.
Now DRK brings the INT debuff and MNKs are only top DPS on a dummy and the gap is negligible with other melee's burst and less ramp-up.

So if your team doesn't have a MNK, DRK is pretty anti-magic.
Still not as anti-physical as PLD, though, but enough to be considered within that niche just by kit design.

This is actually a pretty good point. In the absence of a Monk, bringing a Dark Knight to lower magic damage on the entire raid is solid. I still don't like the titles some folks are trying to pin on the different Jobs, though.