Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

[Erim-Nelhah]

Prey is not a tank buster in A1N OR A1S. Prey is prey, 6 missiles will hit the target. Target is random. It's also physical, not magical. His cleave 'royal fount' is a pathetic 5 k unmitigated hit. Not a tank buster.

A1N has no tank buster, A1S has hypercompressed plasma. It is a magical attack dealing around 25k unmitigated damage on the player with the highest threat. The tank. Please don't mistake a simple damage mechanic for an actual buster of tanks.

Thank you for clearing that up, I appreciate it.

No, I'm not gonna edit/delete my old post, since it has replies....and even with the errors the point (PLD CDs aren't completely worthless, as the post I replied to insinuated) stands.

--Erim Nelhah

[SirTaint]

In fact, Sentinel only has 2% more damage reduction worth of eHP than Vengeance. Shield Oath already reduces damage by 20% whereas Defiance doesn't. It makes so that Sentinel reduces 40% damage on top of already reduced damage by 20%. It makes it so that Sentinel only reduces 32% damage with shield oath, whereas Vengeance is still 30% in Defiance. Most people seem to not take that into account. Shield oath + Sentinel doesn't give 20 + 40% damage reduction, otherwise using Rempart + Sentinel on Shield oath would give 80% damage reduction and it would be almost a second Hallowed Ground.

Another rarely pointed out fact. +1

The tank forums are so sloshed with bad information with their telephone game effects.

[Nanaho]

sounds like people just want cookie cutter classes and have absolutely no difference between the tanks... that is not a fun game we already have Bards turning into immobile turrets so they have to feel the pangs of the casters, why turn more of the games jobs into one another? Warrior is fine, it's in the center, able to DPS when needed, and tank when needed, then you got PLD on the physical mitigation side, and DRK on the magical, it's a perfect trifecta, and i think it's balanced myself and creates the synergy this games Armoury system was made for.

[pandabearcat]

sounds like people just want cookie cutter classes and have absolutely no difference between the tanks... that is not a fun game we already have Bards turning into immobile turrets so they have to feel the pangs of the casters, why turn more of the games jobs into one another? Warrior is fine, it's in the center, able to DPS when needed, and tank when needed, then you got PLD on the physical mitigation side, and DRK on the magical, it's a perfect trifecta, and i think it's balanced myself and creates the synergy this games Armoury system was made for.

Its not a trifecta, its the pillar of WAR with 2 dinky planks supporting it on the side. If it was truly balanced we wouldn't be having this discussion, and 99% of groups wouldn't have a warrior as an OT.

Are you seriously saying that the debuffs WAR brings are in any way equal to the pitiful "half debuffs" that PLD and DRK bring, that don't even do as much individually as WAR's debuff does to ALL damage types?

Are you even aware what the "difference between the tanks" are? How making a debuff stronger has literally nothing to do with how the class plays? What the hell does wanderer's minuet even have to do with anything? Whaaaaaat? Are tanks getting cast times?

[karateorangutang]

sounds like people just want cookie cutter classes and have absolutely no difference between the tanks... that is not a fun game we already have Bards turning into immobile turrets so they have to feel the pangs of the casters, why turn more of the games jobs into one another? Warrior is fine, it's in the center, able to DPS when needed, and tank when needed, then you got PLD on the physical mitigation side, and DRK on the magical, it's a perfect trifecta, and i think it's balanced myself and creates the synergy this games Armoury system was made for.

..... balanced... sure. I'm not even gonna venture into this one. Read the last nine pages. They are any thing but on equal footing currently.

[Phoenicia]

The misconceptions that people have shows how much people "think" about class balance instead of just copying top raid groups' setups. (hint: they don't!) And it kinda irks me. I will work to clear some of them.

Misconception #1: WAR is worst MT. On the contrary, WAR is a great MT!

1- WAR CDs are the shortest, allowing them to be up for the most frequent busters! Think back on Twintania with 35s Death Sentence. PLD relied on Stoneskin + Adlo or tank swaps, otherwise took full damage. WAR has IB for every darned DS.

2- WAR can stack CDs to have universally the highest effective HP! In a normal scenario a WAR will use 1 CD + IB. Usually putting it ahead of any of the other tanks single CD usage. Stacking all CDs for scenarios like As1 where busters are every 2 minutes, WAR wins.

WAR: ToB (EHP x1.2), Vengeance (EHP x1.429), IB (EHP x1.25) for a total of 214% of their max HP. Add a reliable Raw Intuition Physical only for an additional multiplier of EHP x1.25 (267.5%).

PLD: Rampart (EHP x1.25), Sentinel (EHP 1.667) for a total of 208% of their max HP. You can add Sheltron/Bulwark for physical only but they are less reliable (can miss) and depend on your shield block power. Multiplier varies between 1.25 to 1.38 (Kite vs tower) (260~287%)

DRK: Shadowskin (EHP x1.25), Shadowwall (EHP1.429) for a total of 178.6% of max HP. You can add Reprisal (EHP x1.11) but it's not reliable. DA+Dark Mind for additional EHP x1.429 against magic (edging at 255% of max HP) and Dark Dance is a joke in terms of EHP.

Realistically, PLD will throw either Rampart (HPx1.25) or Sentinel(HPx1.667) against a single Buster. Add shield block if timed correctly against physical.
DRK will throw either Shadowskin (HPx1.25) or Shadowwall (HPx1.429) and only pair DADM for magical to reach HPx1.7825 and HPx2.04 respectively.
WAR will always pair IB with another CD. IB+ToB is HPx1.5 and IB+Vengeance is HPx1.786.

Against physical damage: WAR is actually ahead of PLD unless PLD successfully blocks with a tower shield at 267.5% vs 260~287% and just blows DRK out of the water by almost a full HP worth in EHP at 267.5% vs 178.6%! This gap will lessen/widen as PLD gets higher ilv shields.

Against Magical damage: WAR is clearly behind DRK with about 40% HP worth in EHP at 214% vs 255% but is slightly ahead of PLD by 6%.

Verdict: While you will almost never throw all your CDs at any given buster, the fact that WAR pumps higher EHP against any buster than the other two tanks in physical and ahead of PLD but behind DRK in magical is still there.

Foresight, Awareness, Convalescence and co add negligible EHP if at all so they were left out. Storm's Path, STR/INT debuffs and other random factors were neglected as the other tanks benefit from them as well.

3 - WAR self heals are the most potent and easiest to utilize of the three.

4 - Nothing in WAR's toolkit is exclusive to the OT role. What they do as OT they can do as MT.

5 - With proper utilization of Unchained, Berserk and stance dancing, WAR has the highest MT DPS potential.

Misconception #2: WAR is best OT WAR is a great OT. But it has no real edge over the other tanks in OT outside of TP.

What WAR does as OT, they can do as MT. Storm's Path/Eye are not deliverance exclusive.

Slashing debuff is not WAR exclusive. DRK/PLD with a NIN will give you the same results of a PLD/WAR combo. Allows you to drop a monk for the higher DPS from DRG and NIN. NIN alleviates the TP issues DRk/PLD have as OT.

This also brings us to misconception #3.

Misconception #3: WAR has the highest off tank DPS this is far from true.

WAR only pulls ahead of DRK when DRK has no slashing debuff. At ilv180 with 190 weapon, usually WAR parses roughly 1000 DPS and DRK roughly 900 DPS. Multiply DRK's DPS by 1.11 and you'll get a figure that is roughly 1000 DPS.

Both WAR and DRK pull roughly 100 DPS ahead of PLD when all three classes have the slashing debuff.

While PLD and DRK will run out of TP on a dummy. That is rarely the case in actual fights where bosses will jump and become invulnerable giving them enough window to regenerate enough TP to keep wailing at the boss until the next jump. Exception is A2/As2, but the AoE breaks requiring you to use MP instead of TP (while WAR still 100% relying on its TP) also alleviate the resource problem.

PLD is only really behind in AoE scenarios because its AoE is a bad joke from SE.

Misconception #4: War utility is better than the other two tanks People exaggerate this so much it's almost funny!

But, this is partially true as DRK has almost no utility!

WAR's ONLY unique thing is Storm Path. You CAN live without it! Trust me! It's nice to have Storm Path, but it is NOT a must.

The over-glorified slashing debuff is also brought in by a NIN. Yes, the NIN loses like 60 potency to apply it. But come on! WAR loses 40 potency doing Storm Path instead of Butcher's Block and no body complains! War loses this 40 potency every 2 combos. NIN loses this every 4 combos + 1 DoT application! (Dancing Edge combo > Shadow Fang combo > Mutilate > Aeolian Edge > Dancing Edge > Shadow fang > Armor Crush sums the NIN rotation)

TL;DR
- WAR is not a worse MT than the other two. Depending on the situation, WAR is actually either a better MT or equally good compared to the other two.
- WAR is not a superior OT as people make it and is not as mandatory to any raid composition.
Let's just stop creating advantages/disadvantages that aren't there.

[Nanaho]

I agree that it would somewhat make classes a bit less distinct, but when you have a raid that simply takes more damage and does less damage without a warrior, than with any of the other tanks, it is kind of silly.

If you want more unique but numbersbalancedish traits, try something like

1. PLD increases healing taken by the raid by 5%. DRK causes all damage to target to heal attackers by 1%.
2. PLD increases raid crit rate by 2%. DRK increases raid haste by 2%.

Etc etc.

The bottom line is only one class brings universally useful abilities, while the other two are niche, and don't provide ANY offensive benefit to the raid. Guess which one you always bring.

thats the point to me. WAR is all around, the other Two are specific. to me, that's balance. you got one for physical, one for magical, one who can do a bit of both and help the other two

[Nanaho]

..... balanced... sure. I'm not even gonna venture into this one. Read the last nine pages. They are any thing but on equal footing currently.

i stopped at 3, people were just rehashing old arguments over and over hoping the shit would stick to the wall finally, it doesn't. people are clearing A1 and 2 savage and almost downing 3 with PLD+DRK compositions. WAR's arent needed, we're a part of the pie, not a nessesary piece

[pandabearcat]

thats the point to me. WAR is all around, the other Two are specific. to me, that's balance. you got one for physical, one for magical, one who can do a bit of both and help the other two

But you end up having warrior who can do all of both, and the other two who can do "a bit of each".

10% STR is nowhere near as powerful as 10% damage reduction, even if all the boss does is physical attacks.

Furthermore, this GUARANTEES that DRK and PLD will be swapped out for magic/phys fights while WAR is ALWAYS in every party.

You see the issue with this?

[Fue]

thats the point to me. WAR is all around, the other Two are specific. to me, that's balance. you got one for physical, one for magical, one who can do a bit of both and help the other two

So its balance to you when the only real options are WAR/DRK or WAR/PLD pr WAR/WAR if you wanna go there?