Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

[Carstien]

The main problem is that WAR is so "universal".



I think a good solution is this:

1. All tanks bring "10% target damage down". They are unique buffs that stack with each other. So you still want 2 different tanks, just doesn't matter which ones you bring.
2. Slashing debuff should be something all tanks bring as well. All melee types bring their own damage buff, and every team has a WAR because all tanks could use the slashing damage buff.

So your solution to an imaginary problem is to give every tank the unique aspects of WAR?

I also propose that WAR gets grit instead of defiance, and that both DRK and WAR get a shield. While we are at it, I don't think it is fair that sch gets a fairy, so pets for all healers.

I also think that holmgang and living dead should both be changed to hallowed ground. They may keep the names they have now.

[Freyyy]

This is a good solution, but an unfortunate one. Would be nice if we didn't have to homogenize the tanks, and instead were able to give them all something unique (and important) to bring to the table. Path and Eye are both good debuffs, PLD/DRK don't necessarily need copies of those abilities but something as worthwhile.

I personally wouldn't mind having the same perks on all the 3 tanks as long as the gameplay stays different. Hell, I want a slashing debuff on my DRK.

[pandabearcat]

"unique"?

I thought the unique aspect of warrior was that it has on demand timing based damage reduction, a unique stacking resource, and the ability to stance dance more easily than the others. I forgot that the unique aspect of warrior was that it brings passively two debuffs that has no effect on its rotation, which the other two tanks also bring, but only strictly inferior copies of. Oops.

I am not sure how you guys are so insane to propose such ridiculous slippery slope arguments that have literally nothing to do with the issue at hand.

This solution doesn't change the playstyle of any tank, whatsoever. The solution also allows raids to bring the tanks they have and/or people want to play, without being handicapped for the loss of a debuff/buff.

For a real life example, lets take WoW.

Literally every one of its 4? (is it 5 now? 6? idk) tanks have a unique system, yet they all bring the same weakness debuff oh my god its like they're all the same class how did I never see this.

Holy crap. This isn't a debate. This is trying to talk sense into a raving monkey.

And FWIW, the fact that we have so many topics on the matter kinda speaks to it not being an "imaginary" problem.

Noone is saying to nerf WAR. EVERYONE enjoys the way WAR works and are excited for having a tank that is so "good" or "useful".

Now suddenly its wrong to expect the other two tanks to catch up.

[karateorangutang]

1. All tanks bring "10% target damage down". They are unique buffs that stack with each other. So you still want 2 different tanks, just doesn't matter which ones you bring.
2. Slashing debuff should be something all tanks bring as well. All melee types bring their own damage buff, and every team has a WAR because all tanks could use the slashing damage buff.

1. what if instead we all bring 5% down that stacks and a stat debuff. Ex. PLD brings STR down, WAR brings Dex down, DRK brings INT down. Not saying these in concrete but it would require both tanks to work in unison for that 10%.
2. I don't really see a clever way to handle 2, but it would be nice.

[pandabearcat]

I agree that it would somewhat make classes a bit less distinct, but when you have a raid that simply takes more damage and does less damage without a warrior, than with any of the other tanks, it is kind of silly.

If you want more unique but numbersbalancedish traits, try something like

1. PLD increases healing taken by the raid by 5%. DRK causes all damage to target to heal attackers by 1%.
2. PLD increases raid crit rate by 2%. DRK increases raid haste by 2%.

Etc etc.

The bottom line is only one class brings universally useful abilities, while the other two are niche, and don't provide ANY offensive benefit to the raid. Guess which one you always bring.

[SpookyGhost]

I personally wouldn't mind having the same perks on all the 3 tanks as long as the gameplay stays different. Hell, I want a slashing debuff on my DRK.

This is a fair point, giving everyone Path/Eye wouldn't be the end of the world. WAR would need an extra debuff to stay equal with the other two tanks, though (SE + SP + STR down for PLD, SE + SP + INT down for DRK). Unfortunately there's no other relevant damage stat source outside of DEX (which would be niche at best), so... kinda a tricky situation.

[pandabearcat]

This is a fair point, giving everyone Path/Eye wouldn't be the end of the world. WAR would need an extra debuff to stay equal with the other two tanks, though (SE + SP + STR down for PLD, SE + SP + INT down for DRK). Unfortunately there's no other relevant damage stat source outside of DEX (which would be niche at best), so... kinda a tricky situation.

Well since everyone already has slashing (since everyone has a WAR in their raid) and WAR still seem to be the most popular damage one, I am unsure if WAR need another damage source.

If they do, probably just tweak maim to be a bit higher (maybe 25% damage).

[Freyyy]

RoH/RA could bring the slashing debuff for PLD, and Delirium for DRK. The MNK has both blunt debuff + INT debuff with Dragon Kick, I don't see the imbalance in getting a slashing debuff with Delirium/RoH. They would just have to seperate the INT debuff and make it a second debuff applied by the same skill (like Miasma inflicts its dot + malady + heavy at the same time) in order to make MNK and DRK still overwrite eachother's INT debuff without interfering in their respective vulnerability debuff.

[nyttyn]

DRK get something similar whose only issue is that they need to MT to use it. This isnt an example of WAR being to much, rather, a case that this ability needs to be fixed for DRK.

That, and they need to parry, AND it doesn't have a 100% uptime. And PLD has no equivilent. You can't seriously claim repraisal is anywhere near storm's path's level.

PLD and DRK are both better MT's. PLD and DRK are also capable of OTing, just not as good as WAR.

This is so wrong it actually gives me an ulcer that people keep repeating this.

Note that I'm going to assume you're not incompetent and know how to actually use inner beast for all of this. Arguing that Inner Beast is "harder to use" is not a serious argument - that's a git gud issue, not a toolkit issue.

First of all, we can completely remove Sheltron from the equation along with paladin's block increasing skill as they are completely useless in A1, A3, and A4 outside of stroking stray hits, which parry already does, as paladins cannot block magical attacks.

What does a Wariror have? Foresight, which all tanks have. A slightly worse version of Convalescence. Inner Beast, a 20% damage reduction which they can literally have up for every tankbuster. Thrill of Battle, which while not as good as Sentinel is still a good cooldown. Vengeance, which is equivilent to shadow wall and only slightly worse than Sentinel. Equilibirum and a longer duration Bloodbath, both of which are miles better than Clemency and Souleater. And in case you want to argue about Bulwark (which isn't very good outside of A2), Warriors get Raw Intuition (the 'downside' of which is incredibly easily negated via Awareness).

So Warriors can have a 20% damage reduction up for every tankbuster no sweat, with a additional 20% HP heal/increase along with a 30% damage reduction AND a 20% incoming heals increase. The only departments they're actually considerably worse is Holmgang being worse than Hallowed Ground, and for some reason Defiance not getting a heal increase from a very small handful of healing abilities. That's it - and there's not a single fight in the game right now where either of those matters enough to be able to say WAR is a worse MT.

The only reason people still run it as an OT is to maximize damage output.

Because they arent, and you're just mad and failing to realize PLD has more support than WAR, which in a "lets clear everything uber fast" meta isn't as popular as the tank with more damage or the tank with a bit of damage and a bit of support. That's not a failing of game system, that's keeping tanks distinct.

Oh whoope, a 3 second heal that's easily interrupted that I can only cast twice that's worthless 99% of the time if your healer isn't incompetent (and nigh-completely worthless in Savage since even AUTO ATTACKS interrupt it), a STR down debuff which is half the time pointless when well over half the big attacks and tankbusters in this xpac are magical damage, and Divine Veil which is like what, 1.2k HP if you're gearing with Tank Accessories? Once every three minutes? Compared to Storm's Path and Storm's Eye - a universal -10% damage debuff AND a 10% slashing damage resist down.

And no, Cover is not 'support,' it helped ONE fight LAST expasion for a niche purpose, it's completely worthless if you aren't garbage at your job (you can't even use it to help the other tank soak tankbusters if you're OT anymore since all of the big attacks now are almost always magic damage).

Where is this "more support" people keep touting? Seriously do you people actually know what the state of the tanks in heavensward is, or are you just repeating the same old tired mantras from last expansion because reading up on the changes forming new thoughts would be too difficult?

Noone is saying to nerf WAR. EVERYONE enjoys the way WAR works and are excited for having a tank that is so "good" or "useful".

Yes. We don't want WAR to get nerfed. It's in a good spot, a great spot - the problem is that the other two tanks are behind, and need to be brought up to their level. And while I don't think it'd be enough, giving all three tanks those two debuffs universally would be a fantastic start so you don't have to be forced to bring a WAR every single time.

[Freyyy]

In fact, Sentinel only has 2% more damage reduction worth of eHP than Vengeance. Shield Oath already reduces damage by 20% whereas Defiance doesn't. It makes so that Sentinel reduces 40% damage on top of already reduced damage by 20%. It makes it so that Sentinel only reduces 32% damage with shield oath, whereas Vengeance is still 30% in Defiance. Most people seem to not take that into account. Shield oath + Sentinel doesn't give 20 + 40% damage reduction, otherwise using Rempart + Sentinel on Shield oath would give 80% damage reduction and it would be almost a second Hallowed Ground.