Protect? Really important? Low level content

[Seryl199]

Unnecessary stress is not on the healer it's on the general party expectations. You've got people quitting a group cause the healer doesn't have protect, and people in this topic with the tired old "you can't tell me what to do" garbage and all that. All that so a healer can cast aero and end a run 30 seconds faster. Well that was sure worth all the arguing.

It's a low level dungeon, not cutting edge content. Do I get upset when PLD's aren't using Foresight or Bloodbath in Sastasha even though they have the cross class slot for it? Absolutely not, it doesn't even occur to me to suggest it to them. How do you think a healer would feel if, as a tank, I told them to swap out Protect and cross class Cleric Stance and start DPS'ing? They'd probably tell me to kick rocks, and they'll play how they want to play. I feel that the healer is a unique position allowing it to provide DPS when it's not being taxed by it's responsibilities, and that not even attempting to do so is fairly lazy. However, I keep that to myself when I see a healer idling to the side during battles. It's not my business so long as their role is being fulfilled. Just like how I prefer my own style, and expect that it's at least respected. Good DPS healers DPS without endangering the party, which is very much a fulfillment of their role as a healer, and is done with measured, calculated risk.

As far as the party's expectations, you don't know what they expect. It's a pug. At low levels, it's entirely possible they've never had a DPS healer before, they'd have no notion of what that expectation entails. A healer's job is to sustain the party until the completion of an encounter. One school of thought is to use DPS, making that encounter shorter, reducing the amount of damage that is taken overall, which requires less healing to be done. Another approach is to mitigate damage preemptively, done through using Protect, Stoneskin, and other mitigative abilities. Does either method fail? No, not unless the healer fails. The defensive approach is safer, but it's like putting up a safety net while you're trying to balance on the curb. Even if you fall, you're not going to get hurt. I'm talking strictly low level here.

Still, the mentality behind each approach is fundamentally different. If you (the player) feel you didn't perform your role to your maximum potential because you didn't apply every buff available to you, then get off your butt and do so. Some players dig a healer like that. If you feel like you have a lot of downtime, throw some DPS out there. Things die faster, and you'll Always Be Casting. Some players dig a healer like that. The party will adapt to your playstyle, just like how you'll adjust your playstyle to fit each party. It's a shame for people to get hung up on something like cross class skills, what qualifies a good healer is much more than that. Healers that are alert, able to predict damage, both avoidable and unavoidable, and have good decision making skills will be a strong healer to have in your party, the order of their cross class skills be damned.

[Yorumi]

snip...

I don't get what you're not understanding about this. In a low level dungeon all your cross class options has virtually no impact on the pace of the dungeon. Why sit and argue and quarrel with everyone over one cross class skill that's just kind of expected whether or not it makes any difference? It just seems so silly to sit there and stomp your feel saying "no, i'm not casting protect, i'm casting aero."

[Bovinity]

I don't get what you're not understanding about this. In a low level dungeon all your cross class options has virtually no impact on the pace of the dungeon. Why sit and argue and quarrel with everyone over one cross class skill that's just kind of expected whether or not it makes any difference? It just seems so silly to sit there and stomp your feel saying "no, i'm not casting protect, i'm casting aero."

Well that goes both ways, then. If it's such a non-factor, then why make a big deal over which spell he's using? If it's such a non-factor, why are they the one expected to do what other people want him to do when they stomp their feet over it?

[Yorumi]

Well that goes both ways, then. If it's such a non-factor, then why make a big deal over which spell he's using?

Because you can't control what other people do. When you're not casting protect there will eventually be someone that comes along and make a big deal out of it. Is the person stupid? Sure, but is it really worth fighting over? No. I'm not suggesting these people are justified, just that it's not worth the hassle. If someone's fun is ruined because they couldn't cast aero in copperbell there's something wrong.

[Bovinity]

Because you can't control what other people do. When you're not casting protect there will eventually be someone that comes along and make a big deal out of it. Is the person stupid? Sure, but is it really worth fighting over? No. I'm not suggesting these people are justified, just that it's not worth the hassle. If someone's fun is ruined because they couldn't cast aero in copperbell there's something wrong.

Eh, I really don't see the value in (or like the idea of) ceding everything to other people just because they'll raise a fuss over it. They're the ones making waves and disrupting the group, ought we all not simply be telling them that they're the unreasonable one?

It is interesting to me though. In many areas of life it seems to be this way...someone can raise a fuss over something and expect you to change or do something according to their will, but if you refuse, people make it seem like you're the unreasonable one.

I don't get resistance from the groups I'm in. I tell them I'm set up for DPS, they say ok, and we run. This happens every time. I've had maybe four instances where someone asks again, at which point I say, "Absolutely, mind waiting a minute for my skills to cool down?" then we run. It's a non-issue every run.

Heh, I had a nice fellow in Halatali last night inform me that "Cleric Stance is only for soloing."

[Leiloni]

Eh, I really don't see the value in (or like the idea of) ceding everything to other people just because they'll raise a fuss over it. They're the ones making waves and disrupting the group, ought we all not simply be telling them that they're the unreasonable one?

It is interesting to me though. In many areas of life it seems to be this way...someone can raise a fuss over something and expect you to change or do something according to their will, but if you refuse, people make it seem like you're the unreasonable one.



Heh, I had a nice fellow in Halatali last night inform me that "Cleric Stance is only for soloing."

Just because someone else is being difficult, that doesn't give you the ok to be the same way. In this case if you talk back to them, you're just making the waves bigger. It's often just easier to let it go. So if it all goes away with one cast of one skill, then the more mature thing to do would be to just cast the skill and get on with it. Learn to pick your battles. Sometimes you don't need to be right and it's just better to relax and make everyone happy. Only children feel like they have to "win" everything.

Threads like this make me feel like none of you have jobs in the real world. Do you talk to your coworkers at the office like that? Stamping your feet and telling them their unreasonable last minute request is not how things are done around here and to just deal with it? No, you suck it up, do the work to make everyone happy, and get on with your day without getting upset.

And honestly, if you handle it well and with a smile, they'll thank you and love you for it. MMORPG players are the same way. Grow up and just be nice.

[Bovinity]

So if it all goes away with one cast of one skill, then the more mature thing to do would be to just cast the skill and get on with it. Learn to pick your battles. Sometimes you don't need to be right and it's just better to relax and make everyone happy. Only children feel like they have to "win" everything.

It's not a matter of "winning", but I really dislike the concept that if someone is a jerk and wants to push us around, we should just let them have their way.

Even when it's just small, trivial things, it's a behavior that we should discourage, not encourage by always "being mature" and folding to them just because they got pushy about it. That's pretty much what jerks and bullies in all walks of life count on: that people will just always back down and give them their way.

[Yorumi]

Eh, I really don't see the value in (or like the idea of) ceding everything to other people just because they'll raise a fuss over it. They're the ones making waves and disrupting the group, ought we all not simply be telling them that they're the unreasonable one?

Honestly both are being quite petty when you get right down to it. Lets honestly step back for a moment and look at what's going on, we're seriously arguing about cross class skills in dungeons where the most dangerous enemy is boredom and mobs die to a sneeze. What ever would we do without that uber aero dps or 10% reduction on 20 damage hits.

[Seryl199]

I don't get what you're not understanding about this. In a low level dungeon all your cross class options has virtually no impact on the pace of the dungeon. Why sit and argue and quarrel with everyone over one cross class skill that's just kind of expected whether or not it makes any difference? It just seems so silly to sit there and stomp your feel saying "no, i'm not casting protect, i'm casting aero."

I don't get resistance from the groups I'm in. I tell them I'm set up for DPS, they say ok, and we run. This happens every time. I've had maybe four instances where someone asks again, at which point I say, "Absolutely, mind waiting a minute for my skills to cool down?" then we run. It's a non-issue every run.

[Gorlioliolio]

If you can't handle healing without protect slot it first, if you don't suck slot it later. Like I said earlier I have it slotted as my 50 skill. I find stoneskin to be much more helpful on the initial pull which is when getting your dots out matters most.

To the people saying protect is more mitigation then stoneskin at the 40 dungeon point, think about it like this. Math wise the rough estimate for protect mitigation is 5% mitigation, meaning in one whole hp bar of the tank it stops 5% of that, so the tank needs to go through their entire hp bar twice before protect overtakes stoneskin, and more than likely no matter which one you slot you will have stopped dpsing to heal before that happens.

However stoneskin being frontloaded allows you to mitigate all that damage at the beginning and hopefully provide enough extra dps to get 1 mob dead. Which in a 4 pull becomes 25% more mitigation and in a 3 pull 33% more mitigation which are both substantially more than the 5% of protect.

Edit: Just spent 10 minutes testing this out to try and find the actual values, pulled a few mobs and let them beat on me for 5 mins both with/without protect average hit difference of the mobs was only 3%, I'm at i187 though as pally so protect doesn't raise my defense as high percentage wise as someone in low level gear. About to try it on sch as I can let the test go on longer thanks to heals not taking 35% of my mp. But essentially what it tells me is that if your tank is not level synced protect would probably be a good idea, however if they are it is unnecessary and stoneskin would be far better.

Edit 2: After 2, 10 min intervals of mobs beating on sch with/without protect the results are inconclusive due to RNG, average damage per hit was 0.1% difference. Don't know what to say about it exactly, also noticed something else, protect seems to give exactly 13% more defense, I had always previously thought it was a set number based on caster level, but it adds 13% more to both my pally and my sch. This actually leads me to think that it doesn't matter if the tank is level synced or not the damage difference is going to be minimal. I'm glad I have stoneskin slotted before protect because it doesn't seem to do a whole lot at all. If it is 3% then the tank needs to take 333% of their hp bar before protect beats out stoneskin for healer dps.