Question to all bards who dislike the changes.

[MrSmiley]

Now, this thread is NOT for discussing WM in itself or how people dislike it. The issue here is simple, Bards incredible mobility made it more difficult to balance them with the likes of Black Mage who is heavily punished for movement and movement mechanics. I would like to see some ideas here on how people feel it should be balanced.

So my question is simple, if bard had 2.0 style mobility, never having to stop moving, only class almost never hindered in dps by movement/dodge mechanics (that do not include boss going invuln of course).

What do you feel bard should sacrifice in exchange for having that kind of mobility.

OR

What do you feel less mobile ranged classes should be given in exchange for their weakness.

[Gamer3427]

So tempted to actually speak my mind here on this, but I know full well the "the bard changes are horrible" group will attempt to tear me apart if I do, as I feel that the way SE handled things is exactly how they should have been handled given the community's opinion of bard prior to 3.0.....

EDIT:

Screw it. Let people get mad at me.....

In direct answer to your questions OP...

What do you feel bard should sacrifice in exchange for having that kind of mobility.

They should either put out less damage from their attacks, or they should take more damage from enemy attacks. The second one isn't viable however, as people would complain that Bards die to easily from hard hitting attacks that are unavoidable....

OR

What do you feel less mobile ranged classes should be given in exchange for their weakness.

Obviously, pretty much the opposite of what my other answer is. They should put out more damage, or have more defenses than Bards to help them survive the fact that they can't avoid damage as easily. Gain, the second option here isn't viable, because it would mean that people would still single Bard out as dying to easily compared to the other ranged classes when unavoidable attacks hit....

In both situations, chose to do the only viable option, (at least so long as bards fill a DPS role), by making it so that in exchange for the boosted mobility Bards put out less damage in comparison to less mobile classes. To help compensate for this a little more for situations where having a solid DPS would be more useful than having someone who can dodge easier, they made sure Bards had support abilities that helped the entire party so that people would still accept them in end game content.....

The problem that spawned WM is that Bards were still ostracized because the support function wasn't necessary in end game content, (because you can't make it so a certain class is mandatory in all content), so people looked at the fact that it put out less DPS as having a hindrance to the team since DPS was necessary. Because of all the complaints of "bard has too low DPS", and because SE decided to listen to the fans after the mess that was 1.0, they started to devise a way that they could boost DPS without simply making the class both more powerful while retaining mobility, because that would make it unfair to the other ranged classes. The result was a skill that lets you pick a middle ground if the situation demands it. You can trade some mobility for better raw damage, putting you closer to what the other casters have. You still have the option to turn it off though and regain that mobility for situation where survival is the key. However, they realized that they also couldn't boost the damage so much that it was on par with other ranged classes, because then Bard would be in higher demand than the others due to the fact that it still has the buffing abilities. So, in an effort to balance it a little better they kept the damage boost good, but not spectacular. When it turned out that said damage boost was negligible at best in practice, they boosted it further to fix that mistake.....

The new problem is that while half of the players were complaining that Bard damage was too low, and were either excluding them from runs or dropping playing the class itself, the other half of the players were happy with it the way it was. The happy players were far less vocal than the unhappy ones however, (since people don't go around talking constantly about how happy they are with content, particularly on these forums), so SE only heard the voices of the ones complaining about DPS. Now that they implemented and subsequently fixed WM, the majority of the voices of people complaining about DPS have died down, while the other half of the players have spoken up because they feel that this new option goes against the mechanics of what their job is. By appeasing one crowd, they angered another.....

At this point, there isn't a "Win/Win" situation. If they leave things as they are, then they continue angering the players that are currently vocal. If they change WM to remove the current downside without implementing another, (which could very well anger both crowds), then it becomes a free DPS buff that would better be suited as a raw potency increase, and would thus break the balance of how Bard fits in as a more mobile/supporting DPS. They also can't simply remove WM entirely and replace it with another skill, as that would anger the have of the fanbase that prompted the inclusion of the skill to begin with.....

In other words, they're currently having to choose between angering one part of the bard population, angering the other part, or angering players who play other ranged DPS by granting bard more of their strengths while none of their weaknesses. The only way they can appease everyone is if they find a mythical "fourth option" that somehow manages to not upset anyone via a middle ground of some sort between all three view points. And even then, there will be someone that will get upset about it.....


EDIT 2: This is just my way of viewing things from an objective standpoint. I've tried defending the benefits of the skill itself in the past, based on my experiences with GB on my MCH, but as the vocal crowd now is complaining less about the raw stats, and more about the "feel" of it, said defenses hold little meaning. In my first edit however, I was attempting to view the situation from a neutral standpoint, weighing the "whys" of the changes rather than the question of whether they were ultimately the right choice or not. Whether I failed or succeeded in this regard is up to those who read this post to decide.....

[Mimilu]

Maybe Bard's new abilities could have been heavily position-based, using that mobility they had?
For example, maybe Sidewinder could only be use when flanking an enemy, Iron Jaw only when in front of the enemy, and so on.
Or their damage could focus more heavily on DoTs, with their normal weapon-skills just adding to it?

[micheleuno]

Now that WM have no cast and i'm getting used to the WM dance, even if i don't like the change, is bearable.
Before 2.0, the bard was the class that make the less dps, but thanks to the ability of "Run and Gun" my dps was always one of the first.
The bards now that they don't have their mobility, they should do a comparable damage to the other DPS clases, and for example in Alexander a good monk hit like a 20-25% more than me...
In my opinion even with the SE 3.01 fix, WM isn't as rewarding as it should be.

[PopeHat]

I would be fine with the nerf they did in PVP. DPS determined by distance if WM is up.

[Smeggles]

Mobility was NEVER the issue. Damage was only an issue because of how FAR we lacked behind (I am fine being last on the DPS table, aslong as it is 900 vs 1000, not 600 vs 1000)

The problem with bard is the playstyle is horrible and clunky. The class wasn't designed with cast bars in mind. When you have 11+ oGCD abilities to weave on different recast and some resetting randomly, having one come up as you start a "cast" means it is delayed by at least 1.5 seconds. Doesnt sound like much, multiply that by 6, now it has been 9 seconds of wasted abilities. Add on top of this any time I have to move while "Casting" could be the difference of Ironjaws going off and refreshing my dots, or having to use 5 seconds of DPS time to re-apply them. It is FRUSTRATING to see dots fall off, or start a cast to have bloodletter come off cooldown, let alone proccing AGAIN the next cast I start.

I have played Bard since 2.0 release. I loved the playstyle, it was fun. It is no longer fun.

[Nikoshae]

I honestly love the changes, but mobility was for certain the big highlight of the job. While everyone's having to run in and out of the fire Bards were still able to toss out the same DPS numbers they were able to toss out while standing still. They may never have done top damage, but they always did the most consistent. Now it's not the case. I'm torn between 'for the better,' because I genuinely enjoy the new style WM and subsequent new abilities bring to the table, and 'for the worse,' because losing complete mobility takes away from the class.

Personally, I'd keep WM as it is currently, but allow casting on the run. I mean, the name implies wandering. Why not let Bards wander? Keep autoattacks off. Add the cast times. But allow movement while casting. Let Bards continue to be the quintessential consistent DPS.

Now, let's talk about that three-second-cast single-target single-DoT immunity song that we've been stuck with and how this can be improved...

[StrejdaTom]

I got used to WM, I use it a lot and almost always I outdps the most of my parties on stuff like Alex/Primals but..
I see no reason why BRD should sacrifice anything in order to move. Before Heavensward we were always the lowest DPS + had to cast ballad/paeon which even lowered it more. Back then it was balanced in my opinion. BRD could easily keep the mobility and still be like.. IDK 15% below other jobs with songs + mobility. Raids would still take BRD or MCH because of the song and the ability to move and do some raid mechanics.
I am just saying that the gamestyle change was absolutely uneccessary atleast in my eyes. For me some more utility skills and maybe 1 or 2 DPS skills would be better than whole WM thing.

[MisterLucie]

Maybe Bard's new abilities could have been heavily position-based, using that mobility they had?
For example, maybe Sidewinder could only be use when flanking an enemy, Iron Jaw only when in front of the enemy, and so on.
Or their damage could focus more heavily on DoTs, with their normal weapon-skills just adding to it?

The issue with this is that unless you're up near the boss, positioning yourself to its side or back can take a while, and if you're going to be sitting in melee range to pull off positionals like that you may as well just play a melee.

[Ranen]

Personally, I'd keep WM as it is currently, but allow casting on the run. I mean, the name implies wandering. Why not let Bards wander? Keep autoattacks off. Add the cast times. But allow movement while casting. Let Bards continue to be the quintessential consistent DPS.

How would that even work? What's the point in having a cast bar if we could still move freely while casting? I mean sure we'll still have casts which would make the whole flow of the class seem slower...but it'd make more sense to just leave it out on the whole.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind WM being a cast timed thing, but it should add casts to the new abilities. Leave SS, HS alone. Hell I wouldn't even mind VB and WB having casts because chances are we'll be using IJ to redot anyway. And with that half the issues with procs are gone.