Astrologian buffs confirmed

[Triaste]

Why does no one see the fact that a saved buff for dps checks is vital?

Because that would make AST mandatory, also if its really -vital- to ensure it you'll need: RR AoE Before the fight, wait till you draw balance, engage fight, spread balance - wait for DPS check before using ANY cards, as to not use up AoE RR and not have it ready until DPS check.
Yay -vital- DPS check cleared. Next Step: Pray there is not another DPS check, before you manage to get that combo again. Also pray that there is no HP Check where you'll NEED AoE Bole.

What if the server first clear was the lucky astro that pulled nothing but arrow and balance cards the entire fight?

Easy, you'll get another AST, that draws nothing but boles. It evens out. Not over one encounter but over the whole playerbase.
Thats like introducing a DPS class that can both be the worst DPS class, and the best DPS class in any given encounter simply based on luck.

According to this thread pulling 6 of the same card in a row is quite common. You simply can't try to stick math on a job like astro.

And that is exactly the point, why the Card mechanic, will not be taken in consideration, and there wont be any vital dps checks requiring cards ~

[Miiu]

[...]

How do you math rng anyway? What if the server first clear was the lucky astro that pulled nothing but arrow and balance cards the entire fight? According to this thread pulling 6 of the same card in a row is quite common. You simply can't try to stick math on a job like astro.

You math rng with probability.

[chumsy]

How do you math rng anyway? What if the server first clear was the lucky astro that pulled nothing but arrow and balance cards the entire fight? According to this thread pulling 6 of the same card in a row is quite common. You simply can't try to stick math on a job like astro.

Its called law of averages

[RichardButte]

You keep bringing up along with others, the % of dps increase an astro brings to the party. Why does no one see the fact that a saved buff for dps checks is vital? Overall dps increase hardly matters, its what they can bring to the table to get over hurdles easier.

Because I just spent a Bismark hard run trying to save those exact buffs for DPS checks and I got nothing but spires and ewers the majority of the time.

And actually, yes, overall DPS increase DOES matter because that's what a hybrid class brings to a fight: they tradeoff healing power in exchange for ending the fight more quickly (or they should, anyway). In essence, they need to do less overall healing and there should be fewer chances for a screwup to happen that wipes the raid because the hybrid pushes phases faster.

How do you math rng anyway? What if the server first clear was the lucky astro that pulled nothing but arrow and balance cards the entire fight? According to this thread pulling 6 of the same card in a row is quite common. You simply can't try to stick math on a job like astro.

I'm glad you asked: we just use statistical probability to determine the overall value.

We assume that all 6 cards have an equal chance of being drawn (because they do, or SE is seriously messing with us, like epic trololololololol to no end...).

So balance and arrow can each be drawn twice per minute, so there's a 1 in 3 chance of drawing a card that will increase damage output on one DPS by 10% for 15 seconds, twice per minute.

So 10%/3 = 3.3% damage increase, divided by 2 because it can only ever be up for 30 seconds of every minute, and multiplied by 2 because you can draw twice per minute = 3.3% damage increase per minute on a single DPS, and this number gets WORSE for every 30 seconds you're holding onto the precious expanded RR +Arrow/Balance combo because you're not drawing.

Compare that to Selene's buff: 3% damage AND healing speed increase, divided by 2 since it's only every 30 seconds = 1.5%, times 8 as it hits the whole party = 12% DPS AND healing increase.

The only comparison AST even has is an expanded RR Arrow, which has an even worse chance of happening and my head hurts too much to calculate it out right now.

Even if Selene didn't exist for comparison, an average of 3.3% DPS increase from a single DPS isn't worth losing out on reliable emergency heals and all of the other tools that WHM and SCH bring to a party.

That's why AST needs a serious buff: sure, you're going to have good and bad streaks, but overall, the average benefit is terrible, especially when considering all of the emergency tools AST doesn't bring to a party that the other healers do.

I love the HELL out of AST's playstyle. I love how skilled managing can push to get the most out of the class, but the sad truth is that squeezing every last drop of buff and utility out of AST STILL doesn't make it worth bringing over the other healers.

[EchuKayu]

Nothing says a terrible spell like a channeled 18 second 10% damage reduction. That would be useful if you could place it. Place it on tanks, place it on ranged, place it for a stack maybe. At least you can have HoTs rolling and the regen in diurnal sect, but in nocturnal you are effectively 100% useless.

But hey, popping it real quick for a big hit then leaving it, for a spell that can last 18 secs (which you probably will never see in -any- sect) is so, so bad.

[EchuKayu]

You keep bringing up along with others, the % of dps increase an astro brings to the party. Why does no one see the fact that a saved buff for dps checks is vital? Overall dps increase hardly matters, its what they can bring to the table to get over hurdles easier.

How do you math rng anyway? What if the server first clear was the lucky astro that pulled nothing but arrow and balance cards the entire fight? According to this thread pulling 6 of the same card in a row is quite common. You simply can't try to stick math on a job like astro.

Probably because fights aren't balanced around the assumption that you will have an AST in your party? The buffs an AST brings, even if they get 100% lucky, really isn't going to make a fight makeorbreak. May it make it easier? Sure it will, after all that is the point of the cards, as is the point of the SCH pet buffs.

[Leiloni]

Because I just spent a Bismark hard run trying to save those exact buffs for DPS checks and I got nothing but spires and ewers the majority of the time.

And actually, yes, overall DPS increase DOES matter because that's what a hybrid class brings to a fight: they tradeoff healing power in exchange for ending the fight more quickly (or they should, anyway). In essence, they need to do less overall healing and there should be fewer chances for a screwup to happen that wipes the raid because the hybrid pushes phases faster.



I'm glad you asked: we just use statistical probability to determine the overall value.

We assume that all 6 cards have an equal chance of being drawn (because they do, or SE is seriously messing with us, like epic trololololololol to no end...).

So balance and arrow can each be drawn twice per minute, so there's a 1 in 3 chance of drawing a card that will increase damage output on one DPS by 10% for 15 seconds, twice per minute.

So 10%/3 = 3.3% damage increase, divided by 2 because it can only ever be up for 30 seconds of every minute, and multiplied by 2 because you can draw twice per minute = 3.3% damage increase per minute on a single DPS, and this number gets WORSE for every 30 seconds you're holding onto the precious expanded RR +Arrow/Balance combo because you're not drawing.

Compare that to Selene's buff: 3% damage AND healing speed increase, divided by 2 since it's only every 30 seconds = 1.5%, times 8 as it hits the whole party = 12% DPS AND healing increase.

The only comparison AST even has is an expanded RR Arrow, which has an even worse chance of happening and my head hurts too much to calculate it out right now.

Even if Selene didn't exist for comparison, an average of 3.3% DPS increase from a single DPS isn't worth losing out on reliable emergency heals and all of the other tools that WHM and SCH bring to a party.

That's why AST needs a serious buff: sure, you're going to have good and bad streaks, but overall, the average benefit is terrible, especially when considering all of the emergency tools AST doesn't bring to a party that the other healers do.

I love the HELL out of AST's playstyle. I love how skilled managing can push to get the most out of the class, but the sad truth is that squeezing every last drop of buff and utility out of AST STILL doesn't make it worth bringing over the other healers.

Your trying to simplify a lot of things that just aren't that simple at all. For one thing, Balance is the only buff in discussion that actually is a flat damage increase.

Arrow increases skill, spell, and auto attack speed by 10% which does not equate to a direct 10% damage increase. The damage increase potential will differ depending on the class and where they are in their rotation, what skills are off CD, etc. You'll have to math out all of that individually to figure out the increase of Arrow.

So you have a 1 in 6 chance of drawing a card that increases the damage output on one dps by 10% and another 1/6 chance of drawing an Arrow card that increases the output by a currently unknown X% on average. If you want to consider the chance of the expanded card, keep in mind that you can get the expanded buff from 2 separate cards.

If you're also talking about the chance to get other RR buffs, you might also want to calculate those out as well - how much damage each one does with each card on various classes as well as the chances to get each combo.

Further, there are the other cards that have other calculable effects on the group. Several classes benefit from the oGCD reductions of Spear which can either directly or indirectly increase dps. You'll want to calculate those out as well.

Then you have things like Bole which, while not direct damage increases, can potentially give the healers time to dps more, or at least save them mana so they can dps more later on in the fight. Although I can see reasons why ignoring this one would make more sense, especially given the damage prevention potential of SCH. It just gets too messy and potentially irrelevant at that point.

But I do think Ewer/Spire are worth calculating as well simply because no other healer has that capability. If thrown when the player is high in resources, these can have an important impact.

I'd also like to see Time Dilation factored in as that will obviously increase damage in the same way that Extended RR will.

As for the SCH, the fairy buff is the same as our Arrow buff. It's not a straight damage increase and the actual increase will need to be calculated out for each class.



I don't doubt that the RNG affects the potential dps buffs the AST can offer to the party and that SCH clearly has an edge right now. Both of those conclusions are pretty obvious. But if you really want to include the math, then include the math (otherwise, don't bother making incomplete and simplified arguments with it). I'm sure a lot of people would love to see it, myself included. The only bit of math I've seen on it is this bit of napkin math that someone did with some of the same false assumptions you've made, along with still being a bit incomplete.

http://pastebin.com/qQTwe237

[Kietsu]

Compare that to Selene's buff: 3% damage AND healing speed increase, divided by 2 since it's only every 30 seconds = 1.5%, times 8 as it hits the whole party = 12% DPS AND healing increase.

This right here makes absolutely no sense. Selene doesn't increase your party's DPS output by 12%, she increases it by 1.5%.
Still, you got me thinking!

A comparison of Fey Wind to the Balance is a bit tricky, because damage != attack speed. But let's give it a whirl.

If you somehow manage to play an Expanded Balance or Arrow every minute (and let's be clear here, that's not going to happen), you're giving the whole party 5% more damage with 25% uptime, meaning you're bolstering your party's DPS by 1.25% - this is outright less than Fey Wind. An Expanded Balance combined with Celestial Opposition increases the party's DPS by 1.5% for the one minute span of time before the next Expanded Balance, but this can only be done on every third Expanded Balance. Because the Arrow doesn't boost the damage of oGCDs and similar things, it's a bit worse - but Selene has the same problem. Still, Selene is 100% reliable.

However, there's a scenario where Astrologian's buffs should really shine: Burn phases. In burn phases shorter than 15 seconds, the uptime doesn't matter - only the potency does. To make matters better, we can actually set up for this semi-reliably, though doing it too far in advance means we just stop drawing cards until the burn phase.
In this case, the Astrologian buffs the party's DPS by 5%, while Selene only manages 3%. (And again, the Arrow and Selene actually perform a bit worse than this)

tl;dr cards suck for buffing raidwide DPS except during burn phases.

(I tried figuring out if it's better to aim for single target buffs over AoE buffs but because all of the RNG it's insanely complex. Short answer: It's a good choice in 4-man but falls flat in 8-man because each individual DPS player has a smaller chunk of the overall impact)

[TheWaywardWind]

Your trying to simplify a lot of things that just aren't that simple at all. For one thing, Balance is the only buff in discussion that actually is a flat damage increase.

I will agree with you on the discussion involving Arrow, as it does need more proper math involved to fully determine its total percent damage increase as it does affect more than just simply spell speed casts, but on the whole, the math become superfluous if we take into account that Balance is the best card for flat party increase as that's what it's designed around. You could try to argue it's not due to the lack of math, but too much related to AST requires perfect hypothetical situations which practically never arise to begin with. If you do want to argue towards the classes fullest potential, fine, but that's all it is. Potential. Other classes are too definitive in their buffs for AST to truly be worth it.

Arguing in favor of Spear is laughable simply because you cannot demand that you measure things based off RNG and then throw in a perfect hypothetical situation in which Spear is always used at the correct time to draw upon its maximum benefit of shortening cooldowns. The fact is while you can also scribble all the math you want in a vague attempt to decipher Spear's true "power," fights and battles in FFXIV all require DPS to use their cooldowns at very specific times, and there's almost no guarantee you're going to pull Spear at the right time in order to utilize it properly. You'd either be waiting around for a good time to use it (DPS loss), forcing the DPS to not use their abilities (DPS loss), or burn through various other cards in an attempt to draw it (DPS loss.)

Spire is not worth calculating in any sense simply because TP is never an issue. Spire would only serve as a true benefit to DPS increased if the target you are using it on eventually burns and runs out of TP, which is never the case. If you use a Spire on a Monk and they still have TP left, it was a DPS loss and waste as they never properly took full advantage of what the card had to offer, simply because if you're never running out of TP (which never amounts to a DPS loss), why would you need a buff to reduce TP costs if TP is never an issue?

I'll spare Ewer simply because of its use for Black Mage, but again, you yourself can argue against the math performed already (which I agree is a tad on the weaker side without any readily available computations for analyzing), but you can't simply state, "Well, of course you'll have to measure EVERYTHING" because if you really want to measure -perfect- scenarios, Balance is the most reliable increase in damage, and anything less simply isn't worth measuring because it's not the maximum potential AST can bring.

You could argue, "Oh but Ewer is a DPS increase as well," but it doesn't matter. Who cares if Ewer is a .01% increase? It's less than Balance and it isn't even worth mentioning because you're not reaching AST's full potential.

So while you could do all the math in the world, it's not going to magically make AST any better. It requires too many perfect scenarios, too many perfect draws, too many perfect things, where as other buffs from other classes are set in stone. AST, unfortunately, does not have that luxury, and the cards need a buff in their overall DPS increase to show that.

[Krixus]

Glad we have ruled out trying to math Astro's party dmg output, because like I said, way too many scenarios (arrow / spear) that cannot be calculated. Unless you calculated a single fight, which would be quite hard. And do this over hundreds of fights to see the actual increase. Basing everything off balance increase is far too simplified.