We should have a "Lance mage", "Ninja Sword mage", "Fist mage"

[Fyce]

WM Cast times does the following:
- Mobility is reduced, but the job's still the most mobile one in the game, by far.
- Spare time to use instant oGCD is reduced to ~1-1.5sec. This also affect the amount of time you have to aknoledge a proc and use it.
- Auto-attacks are gone. Negative side effect: makes Barrage useless. Positive side effect: you are able to move in every direction with little care about facing your target (in short: no more mandatory strafing).
- General "swiftness feeling" of the job is impacted. While this statement is objective, the effect it can have will vary from a player to another.
- Overall DPS increases in general. Exceptions depending on the fight may be present. Players must know what stance to chose (in short: know the fight).

As Solsanna said, if in order to keep all the advantages of the job SE would've put Bard's DPS way too low, the complains would've been way worse because of the amount of DPS check in HS. "Hey, you are a bard? Well, nobody cares about your swiftness and mobility, we know that Bard's DPS is sub-par, so get out of the group" would've been the sentence most eared by Bards.

It's clear at this point that the balance of this job lies in a few words: you can't have everything. WM is here to proves that and Bards have to accept it... or play without it to keep "what they picked the job for", but remain sub-par DPS.

[Aiselia]

- Mobility is reduced, but the job's still the most mobile one in the game, by far.

I'd argue this.

Summoners have two cast-time abilities outside of DWT that are necessary to maintain. Ruin 1 does the same damage as Ruin 2 but you can move while using Ruin 2 and you have enough MP to use it during high movement phases. The only time Summoners are particularly locked down are for the 5 sec it takes to cast Bio 2/Miasma, then the <15 sec of DWT using Ruin 3 (less than because your last hit will be the instant cast DF).

Summoners do not suffer a DPS loss by using Ruin 2 over Ruin 1 if they need to move, while Bards would suffer a DPS loss if they had to turn off WM.

Oddly enough, I feel less limited in mobility while on an actual caster than I do as a Bard.

you can't have everything.

You also can limit mobility (if necessary) without adding cast times.

it's gained complexity

If anything, it has become less complex and challenging because the cast times give it a slower pace.

[Ephier]

I'd argue this.

Summoners have two cast-time abilities outside of DWT that are necessary to maintain. Ruin 1 does the same damage as Ruin 2 but you can move while using Ruin 2 and you have enough MP to use it during high movement phases. The only time Summoners are particularly locked down are for the 5 sec it takes to cast Bio 2/Miasma, then the <15 sec of DWT using Ruin 3 (less than because your last hit will be the instant cast DF).

Summoners do not suffer a DPS loss by using Ruin 2 over Ruin 1 if they need to move, while Bards would suffer a DPS loss if they had to turn off WM.

Oddly enough, I feel less limited in mobility while on an actual caster than I do as a Bard.



You also can limit mobility (if necessary) without adding cast times.



If anything, it has become less complex and challenging because the cast times give it a slower pace.

Less complex than 2.0 BRD? How?

[Fyce]

I'd argue this.

The fact that you said that SMN have to be rooted for 5s every now and then, plus 15s every minute proves my point since that will never happen with a Bard.
Besides, go try doing a good job in someine like A1 (keeping DoTs on both bosses), killing two adds while using Ruin II and I can guarantee you that your MP pool will be gone in a blink.

Bards, even in WM, remains mobile at range at all time. No other job can do that.

[Kumori_Kumo]

Hm.
I mean, I don't play a Bard. I mostly tank. But at the same time I'm lookin' around at other classes.
Does Bard do a ton of damage? The Bard I remember sure didn't, but I might be mistaken! Probably not though?
Does Bard do great utility? Ninjas give me all the TP I want and Machinist seems to be like five times the toolbox of any other class.
So... if all that's true, I guess the question I'm asking myself here is... why a Bard? Why would you roll one now if it's not the total run-and-gun fun in the sun class with middling damage? I've always thought it was "the simple job" but there's room for that. Some people like simple jobs. You can't tell people they're wrong for their choices. But I'm not much of a DPS, so enlighten me!

[Rikkustrife]

Hm.
But I'm not much of a DPS, so enlighten me!

Well bards did more damage than people here seem to think, but yes they did lower damage than the other dps.
Otherwise you are correct.
It is a simple job, but black mage was just as simple, black mage now seems a lot more complex though.
I don't know why some people like the new changes, but some do

[Wintersandman]

while Bards would suffer a DPS loss if they had to turn off WM.

Out of curiosity how much time over the course of a 3-5 minute fight are you forced to move?

Oddly enough, I feel less limited in mobility while on an actual caster than I do as a Bard.

This is just a perception seeing how your ability timers are significantly shorter than other casters.

You also can limit mobility (if necessary) without adding cast times.

Does it may that much of a difference? Bloodletter aside.

If anything, it has become less complex and challenging because the cast times give it a slower pace.

How does it slow things down? Just because you don't get to run around like a jack rabbit doesn't mean anything is slower.

[Rikkustrife]

How does it slow things down? Just because you don't get to run around like a jack rabbit doesn't mean anything is slower.

how does a 1.5 seconds wait for almost every attack not make it slower?

[Wintersandman]

how does a 1.5 seconds wait for almost every attack not make it slower?

2.5 second global cooldown is greater than your cast timer. So you wait for a 1.5 second cast and then wait 1 second to do your next ability. So in reality it is still 2.5 seconds inbetween abilities either way. This is ignoring OGCD abilities which you still have access to.

Secondly, are you implying that mobility isn't important because you're not frequently forced to move?

Saying your making a mountain out of ant hill. It sounds like a big whine fest when in reality it doesn't change much.

Yes. Does it matter if it makes that much of a difference regardless? No. Because if it's possible to limit mobility without adding cast times, then you don't mess around with play style as much, since Bards have to level from 1 to 52 without worrying about it.

What would be an acceptable solution in your mind? Because everything else I have seen suggested, (buffs, etc.) will only make bards want to move less and thus for more dead bards.

Less frantic trying to fit in all the OGCDs you can

So every 1 minute you may have 1-2 oGCD buffs to apply that is up to 24 abilities before these become a concern. Bloodletter you have to worry about every 15 seconds or every 6 abilities, ignoring bloodletter procs since these are subject to RNG. Again mountain out of an ant hill.