After getting dark knight 60 and playing it for a while

[Kelg]

I feel like it's kit is sort of incomplete, and it's abilities are underwhelming in a few ways... Possible changes that I think would help the job a bit:

Cross classes: I feel like Lancer sub would be perfect on Dark knight... Keen flurry, and Invigorate would help Dark knight immensely. I would say lose Gladiator, but we need provoke(Convalescence is nice too ). Marauder also has bloodbath, foresight, and Mercy stroke(very nice when combined with sole survivor). A way to make this all right would be to add the provoke effect to something like plunge(with Dark Arts maybe?). Or just lose the MRD sub.

Blood Weapon: Gives you 10% speed bonus, which in turn causes TP to run dry. It's a big problem as an OT. This could be fixed by changing it so that TP costs are reduced while it's in effect. Either that or change the speed bonus to a damage bonus, and slightly increase the MP return per hit.

Living Dead: A bad skill, I almost forget it exists sometimes. It stresses the healers far more than Hallowed ground or Holmgang, and is almost never a good idea to formulate a strategy using it. As of now, if you're in a PUG, it is pretty much a death sentence once walking dead is activated. It can work in very organized groups, but it draws a lot of resources, and with what other tanks bring to the table, why bother? There are a lot of ways to fix this skill.

Soul Eater: Good skill overall, but I feel like the HP return should be slightly increased, seeing as it's one of our main mitigation tools.

Dark Dance: This skill is insanely good for large trash pulls when used with Dark Arts, but is a bit unimpressive when used against boss mobs. I'm honestly not sure what to fix on this(or if it needs fixed at all), but a lot of people say they would like it to increase Parry more with Dark Arts, instead of adding evade chance.

Shadow Wall: Feels a bit underwhelming compared to the same tier of skill the other tanks have... I feel like it should have a Dark Arts variation. Or just increase the duration/decrease the cooldown.

Dark Passenger: Amazing skill for large trash pulls. Needs to lose the MP cost though. DRK is already very MP hungry, and this skill doesn't help. Or keep the MP cost and add an enmity boost to it.

Carve and Spit: I don't know. It feels pretty weak when used without Dark arts for the MP restore. Pretty good when used with Dark Arts though. Maybe add a minor TP restore on the non-Dark arts version.

Blood Price: Pretty meh when used against a single target. I feel like it needs a way to be more useful while tanking a single enemy(Maybe w/ Dark Arts).

Delirium: It's okay... But I feel like it's a little underwhelming for a combo finisher. Maybe add a damage buff of 10% or so similar to maim? Or have it restore the same amount MP as Siphon strike so it could be an MP return combo(and not be useless when a monk is around).

Dark Arts: MP cost is steep, but that's okay, it makes you be more aware when playing Dark knight. As you can see above, I think it should be more active in Dark knight's kit. It's the main gimmick of the job, and I feel like it isn't used enough.

[rawker]

I agree that Lancers give a very good cross class actions for DRK in the form of:
- Feint
- Keen Flury
- Life Surge
- Invigorate

I wouldn't mind it replacing MRD rather than GLA(Provoke, Convalescence and Awareness are my choice of cross class for them).

[Tranquil]

I can't even imagine the horror of having DRKs have access to the Lancer skillset, namely because of Blood for Blood. I mean, it would be okay when you OT and even when MTing during the most laid-back of fluff moments, but pugging with DRK-tanks would be pretty nightmare-inducing after that.

That being said, apart from that sweat-inducing horror image, mild tweaks are indeed needed, TP issues one of them, Dark Dance getting a tweak, and then one more button to be pushed for more reliable physical tank buster mitigation. (Shadowskin and Shadow Wall have shite uptimes overall right now).

[Teno]

I can't even imagine the horror of having DRKs have access to the Lancer skillset, namely because of Blood for Blood. I mean, it would be okay when you OT and even when MTing during the most laid-back of fluff moments, but pugging with DRK-tanks would be pretty nightmare-inducing after that.

What is the matter ? Pugging is already a nightmare. You don't see a tank without defiance/SO/grit on a boss that really matters. It would be the same with blood for blood. You wouldn't see tanks using it on bosses that matter.
As for the rest, it won't change anything. Bad players will be worse, simple as that.

[Tranquil]

You don't see a tank without defiance/SO/grit on a boss that really matters. It would be the same with blood for blood. You wouldn't see tanks using it on bosses that matter.

Well, I gotta give it to you for thinking positive, at the very least.

[Kaonis]

For the most part I agree with the OP. Pretty much touched on a number of abilities that are just a bit weak or weird feeling.

Though the Delirium change doesn't need to be anything more than add blunt resistance so we can put it up in place of a MNK so they can just DPS more, similar to how a WAR-NIN combo works now. Or as people have said before have it add some sort of other separate debuff effect to it like a %magic resistance down or something. It just needs something more to bring real utility.

Don't forget for Living Dead, it gets worse the stronger you get. More HP/VIT gear means healers will have to heal you more if it does proc.

I do agree the Dark Arts cost is huge, which wouldn't be an issue except DRK is MP starved and many of the abilities it buffs aren't that great when buffed. I honestly use it almost exclusively for a buffed Soul Eater now for the extra damage (not much healing since 80% of the time it seems when it's up in combo the healers already have me topped off). Some of the other abilities are just weak,

-Dark Dance buffed is not only worthless, but the evasion goes against DRK needing to get hit for some key abilities.
-Dark Passenger/Abyssal Drain are merely for trash pulls, worthless on most boss fights.
-Carve and Spit is up for debate, I personally don't think using all that MP for essentially 50 potency is worth it, and would rather use it to get MP back and use more Soul Eater. But I've not done the math so it could be better to DA it, but I imagine it's probably only slightly better.

Dark Mind is about the only other worthwhile ability to buff, but requires you're taking magic damage. Which is either difficult to know if what's hitting you is magical, or a lot of enemies are physical. So it's good, but situational.

[Hundred]

1. Blood Weapon's speed boost affects your spells. Even if you do run out of TP, Unmend has its recast time lowered while under Blood Weapon, and even without Blood weapon doing 150 potency is better then doing simply auto attacks which is the reality for any other melee when they run out of TP as they do not have a second attack resource. TP invigorating moves post-pone running out of TP but do not invalidate TP renewal, which is part of BRD/MCH/NIN's value.


2. What is with this bad "Cross class Lancer" crap that keeps coming. 1) The current cross-classes of PLD/WAR are fine, 2) If there was an alternative they would've put it as ROG or PUG who would bring their own benefits without conflicting with their design goals from Goad's support & Perfect Dodge's defense to Pug's combination of FLeet foot + DA dark dance, Second Wind, Haymaker in relation to the Darks own Evasion, Internal release, & Mantra. Unless they create a tank job for LNC don't expect any tanks to have their skillset (Templar plz).

3. Dark Passengers MP cost is fine and all but arbitrary for large pulls due to Blood Price and Sole Survivor.

[Tranquil]

-Dark Passenger/Abyssal Drain are merely for trash pulls, worthless on most boss fights.

Isn't Dark Passenger a bigger DPS increase than a DA'd Souleater, for less resources used? Comboed SE without DA is 260 potency, whilst DA'd it is 400 potency, meaning a 140 potency increase. A non-DA'd DP is 150 potency, doesn't waste a GCD and also costs exactly half of one DA use. So unless you really need the self-heal from the SE (if MTing in Grit), shouldn't you always go for DP instead due to the +10 potency, it being oGCD and because its cost is literally half of a DA?

I mainly leveled DRK to 60 so I would understand them better from a healing standpoint as I am a healer main first and foremost (though I like tanking), but I just figured I'd sort of ask that right now, as I've seen people post similar thoughts in passing before too.

[Xenosan]

For single target, if MP management is a factor, unbuffed Passenger (+150 oGCD) with unbuffed Souleater (150 + 260 > 400) or Delirium (150 + 280 > 400) to get a 'better' Potency than strictly DA'd Souleater - but at half the MP cost.

Pretty much every 30 seconds you're getting a buffed SE combo for half it's cost (tho less self healing). The Passenger DA buff is only really worth it for trash mobs multiple targets. In single target, the 884 cost of using Passenger added to the 1769 MP cost of Dark Arts means that 250 + 260/280 is coming at 1.5x the MP cost of buffed SE (400), and unless there's MP needed to be wasted - it's better to put the .5x MP into a second buffed SE. With the Dark Arts 5 second recast, it can be difficult to load a DA buffed Passenger and DA'd SE in the same combo

Snipped

Your WS/CD analysis are more or less the same as a lot of others. I agree 100% with this:

Dark Arts: MP cost is steep, but that's okay, it makes you be more aware when playing Dark knight. As you can see above, I think it should be more active in Dark knight's kit. It's the main gimmick of the job, and I feel like it isn't used enough.

^AST is in the same situation.

Dark Arts & Card Drawing are the job-identifying actions for each class. BUT, instead of these abilities actually adding to and enhancing a solid core, CARDs and DARKNESS serve to allow a PLD-core (inferior) DRK to play pretend at (inferior) WAR, and a WHM-core (inferior) AST to play pretend at (inferior) SCH.

--
Said that in a general sense Tranquil

[Tranquil]

I wasn't suggesting DA'ing the DP though, unless you just said that in general. (Because it sort of sounded like you were telling me why not to DA a DP on single-target xd). Anyway, I am not really sure why I put my message in a question-format because the math leaves no questions to be answered in that regard for a single-target non-DA'd DP vs. using a DA on SE. I only pretty much DA my DP on big trash pulls when Blood Price is about to run out or isn't up anymore, because mobs missing me is kind of counter-intuitive. Thanks for the response though.