Please do NOT alter Dark Knight AF for female characters.

[Samcaesar]

Snip

It's a "serious" fantasy world though, or at least it tries to be.

"Magic" is the answer to any of those issues. However "Magic" must at least make some sense, like if "Magic" explains the bellyhole for the women's DRG AF why is there no bellyhole for the men's DRG AF? Magic still exists, therefore bellyhole must exist outside of game influences.

If you want to look pretty, work with the glamour system to wear flowing dresses and the new belly dancer outfit into battle, please stop trying to tread of those who want semi-sensible armor for girls as an option though. Besides, you're arguing that your aesthetic wants are the only choice, some folks would like a different sense of aesthetics. You have glamour to wear pretty outfits, so leave the armor as armor ought to look for use who want a semi-sensible option.

Snip

No seriously, it's one image on huffington post that shows women athletes, not even an article. I'm not attempting to be politically correct (Not that the phrase means anything with how frequent it's tossed around in so many situations) I'm saying let armor make sense. Go have fun with your glamours if you want to look "Feminine". Please let us wear armor that somewhat make sense have out options. Either way, leave my gender out of it, as it's not important to the argument, you seem to have brought it up in an attempt to devalue my argument.

I can assure you, if they could have gotten away with it they would've had her in nipple tassels and a chainmail thong, given what her armor looks like and who they're trying to market the character to. Seriously, she wears a bikini underwear. Conan wears underwear and boots. They don't wear any more clothes than what they're have to wear.

"I am not defending the Sonja character of it's creation" Considering your responses is to my response saying of someone saying "Sonja had a chainmail bikini and no one complained, get over it." I'd say yes, you are defending it. Please explain to me how you aren't defending her character or creation by giving reasons for her horrid outfit. Either way, Conan and Sonja were brought up into the argument because some person in the thread said "Sonja wears a metal Bikini and it worked for her, so if you wanna play a girl deal with metal bikinis" my response to that was something along the lines "I hope we've progressed past the idea that women in fantasy settings must wear bikinis", people defending Sonja's armor and having that be the basis for "Women's armor in fantasy settings" would indicate a lack of progress.

It's not even an article. It's a single picture of women athletes with a wide variety of body types. No, equality for women means not forcing some idea of "Feminine" armor on them because they "should be celebrating differences". It means treating women as equals and not putting them in silly outfits that show off their breasts, hips, or whatever and saying "That's some armor for women right there folks! Super feminine!" This entire topic started because someone didn't want the DRK AF ending up like the DRG AF with some stupid bellyhole on the women. People came in saying "Whaaaat?! Do you not want to support women being feminine!" which would imply that people care far more about having the armor show off boobs and all over the armor be respective to the wearer.

Thats.. Exactly what it does. Please explain to me the differences between "Be a woman! Flaunt those curves~! You gotta be feminine, that's just how you are~!" and "You're a woman, you've must be feminine" outside of tone. I don't care if a girl is feminine, hell I'm really feminine myself, but that has no place in armor, which is ultimately to protect the body. Like, even with biology in mind, so many factors weigh into "physically equivalent" outside of just man and women, such as genetics (Outside of sex chromosomes) and how much they work out. Women aren't all 5'4 qt3.14swith little to no muscles and curves in all the right places, women come in a wide variety of body shapes, muscular density, and heights. Statistics are a very flawed method of determining things, 25 women who are 6' and 75 women who are 5' would mean the average of that group is 5'3, and yet 25% is hardly a statistic outlier to put out an example. Even then, society and men in particular still heavily devalue femininity (Sexism is far from over in general to be honest) in a professional setting, so it's hardly the time to start chanting for us to "Celebrate the differences!" whenever we've only began to get to work on equality.

I've repeated over and over that armor is meant for protection, not for looking masculine or feminine. Did you even look at the link? Like your talk about it being an article and not an image leads me to think otherwise. Seriously, women come in a variety of body shapes, and I can assure you Roegadyn women, sans breasts, are about as masculine looking as the men in game are and are far more masculine looking than Lalafell men. So.. Why do Roegadyn women have that "Feminine" armor like the DRG AF and its bellyhole?

Cool, Sonja can do that much better wearing actual armor. "I'm going to take revenge for the men who robbed me of my home and people and also brutally assaulted me! Therefore going out into the world in what amounts to shiny underwear makes great sense, obviously the best way to strike fear in men who assaulted me once!". Seriously, why would a man draw her in a chainmail bikini top, in the 70's, for a primarily male demographic? I can assure you it had nothing to do with a "Celebrating the differences~!" idea that you seem to have. You've yet to definite what "Femininity" is, so go on, I'm waiting. I've told you what the traditional idea of it is, not that I really care for that definition myself, and that is what most people conflate "femininity" is. If you have a different operational definition of "feminine", please explain. If it's "fitting to the form" then I suppose all armor is feminine. If it's "fitting to the female form" which one? Like I've said, Roegadyn women look about as masculine body wise as most of the other men do.

Not tight, properly fitted, but not tight. If you can make it look "Feminine" without those things, why are you defending chainmail bikinis and the DRG AF? You don't see the men PCs running around in this loose idea of "armor" you know, bulging codpieces and all that. Make the armor fit, don't make the armor "feminine". Lalafells and their utter lack of sexual dimorphism outside of facial hair means no bellyholes for them, and outside of their breasts, Roegadyn women look as masculine to most of the men's models outside of Roegadyn men, there goes the "By making the armor fit to form they make it more feminine!" argument.

[Kosmos992k]

It's a "serious" fantasy world though, or at least it tries to be.

"Magic" is the answer to any of those issues. However "Magic" must at least make some sense, like if "Magic" explains the bellyhole for the women's DRG AF why is there no bellyhole for the men's DRG AF? Magic still exists, therefore bellyhole must exist outside of game influences.

Apparently the belly window is there on the male version (according to another poster), but there is chain mail or some other secondary armor covering the male belly. Perhaps they guys are ashamed of their beer belly and put ona chain mail undershirt to hide it?

[TheDraco4011]

Snip Paragraph 3

First off the sexual dimorphism of humans is a biological FACT. You are conflating biological behavioral tendencies with cultural exceptions of gender.
Secondly it's a FANTASY. Complaining that female armor isnt realistic to real life is like complaining that your character can be brought back to life. The fact is the creator of the game can put whatever they want in their game. If you are really so concern about the portrayal of women then MAKE YOUR OWN fiction instead of whining to get someone else to conform to your petty communistic whims.

[Shougun]

A game ... a fantasy world... made up... not real.

A story.

People wanting to protect pixels.

You do realize that no amount of armour would protect you from falling from great heights, all these "magics", being roasted, etc, etc.? Right?

I'm sorry, but I just can't take you seriously.

And maybe when they create a better glamour system, because the current one is severely lacking, in customization and style, compared to other MMO's.

Fantasy games often reference reality partly because we must, how to expect something born from a realm to not reference all of what they've ever known? From that because we are comforted with what we expect, each of us on varying levels, we would each place this as our immersion to allow us to suspend our disbelief - incredibly important when discussing games, even fantasy, and of course each target audience would be quite different (some can be immersed with very little, but I think to say "I don't need immersion" would be disingenuous or a lack of knowing on the word). Which would then make sense when tanks have the heaviest armor that covers the most of their body - there is an element of personal strength through levels but the gear for tanks is as you'd expect "tanky". So saying this is a Fantasy does not change that we on varying levels must and will reference reality.

Just to be clear, the amount we "must" is not restricted to "realistic" gear but we for example don't create medieval fantasy that has no gravity and that heavy armor protects worse from a blunt sword than bare skin (without the use of "magic" to attempt to defend the irregularity, in general we can place a lot of suspension within magic). Skyrim or Dark/Demon Souls would be examples of games that show a desire to fuse quite a bit of reality with quite a bit of fantasy (FF games clearly don't go to that length, but they do have some attention like you can tell jobs and or character archetypes just from their visuals/story).

As for (not your post) the defence of women power in the depth of showing off their skin, I find this fascinating but perhaps awkward. As we know games and nearly all media was at one point made by men for men and we made females silly eye candy and over time they've become stronger eye candy (some specific but not majority media excluded). Why is it a feminist's benefit to have to have segregated armor that says they're not as strong or fierce as men? Especially when women are -very- capable of wearing the standard 50lb full knight gear (and in a fantasy game, even more so). In the military they are expected to carry their own pack (35-70lbs, few are expected to but some have and can wear the full front line 120lb ones as well). Fantasy games do help explain "sexy" gear (not my favorite) but to segragate the sexyness so that males are tough, strong, well prepared, and quite logical in their choice vs the sexy, unprepared, illogical choice.. I can't help to think that this is not the benefit of women who want to be treated equal but the detriment. I know SE they will continue to add sexy gear and I just hope both genders can enjoy that (generally they've done a pretty good job). Feminist = the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. (yay for google define lol).

Also to add, armor is not clothes and that may be a fatal separation of views - that this isnt a woman in a skirt vs a man in pants, this is armor vs less armor. Armor in concept has no gender (fitting and additive decoration aside). There is a confliction with tank armor just being fashion and not a part of protection by the aspect that it is generally so visually and actually statistically protective (glamour is an illusion and doesn't apply to this conversation).

[Nihility]

honest question, has AF being drastically different ever actually been an issue?

Looking through them I see the variance in ninja/kunoichi costumes which makes sense as ninja is a very japanese rooted fantasy class
and scholar has the pleated skirt/high socks vs culottes/short socks

Everything else the AF costumes seem to be pretty close to identical outside of woman needing a slightly different cut for their extra curves

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Sam, you're really trying too hard to make your point. Yes, there's a diversity in body shapes, both for male and female, yes, there are women less feminine than some men, yes, they don't have to wear tighter armor or so...

But for Althyk's sale, you can't deny the truth. Biology makes men and women different. They don't do the same thing. Shall women be quiet sexy sex toys ? Of course not. Do you really think That a damned Belly Window shows That all female DRG are no more than presomptuous women trying to understand how glorious men can be so glorious ? Of course not. That's just a small difference, and it has nothing to do with feminity. It has to do with bone f***ing structure.

I'm pretty sure no one in the lore would complain if a female DRG closed their belly window or a man opening it. That's Just personal preference, in the end, but because of hardware reasons, we can't have That in game.

[Musashidon]

If you want to look pretty, work with the glamour system to wear flowing dresses and the new belly dancer outfit into battle, please stop trying to tread of those who want semi-sensible armor for girls as an option though. Besides, you're arguing that your aesthetic wants are the only choice, some folks would like a different sense of aesthetics. You have glamour to wear pretty outfits, so leave the armor as armor ought to look for use who want a semi-sensible option.

seriously this works both ways, there are plenty glamours for both sides.(more to come with 3.0 and onward)

in the end the argument is pointless both sides have their said tastes.

saying armor should always look practical and to use glamour to look sexy is like saying the exact opposite glamour should look sexy and and to wear armor to look practical. (like if we were arguing that glamours shouldn't look non sexy) )

there should be both kinds for all kinds of gear.


now this whole male vs female is down right pointless. it's about gear people like.

people want to wear full armor instead of their boobs hanging out. just like some people want to wear armor where they are half naked.

saying gear should look just one way or another is selfish all gear should be made differently some with more skin showing then others and others with less showing.

[seida]

Do you really think That a damned Belly Window shows That all female DRG are no more than presomptuous women trying to understand how glorious men can be so glorious ? Of course not. That's just a small difference, and it has nothing to do with feminity. It has to do with bone f***ing structure.

Are you trying to claim the belly window is there because women have a different BONE STRUCTURE? ahaha.

There is, literally, no defense for it. Men get chainmail to cover it. Women don't. Hmm, why might that be.... you know it would never be the other way round.

I have reasonable faith they won't do anything similar for the DRK armour. At least, very much hope so.

[Nestama]

Also to add, armor is not clothes and that may be a fatal separation of views - that this isnt a women in a skirt vs a man in pants, this is armor vs less armor. Armor in concept has no gender (fitting and additive decoration aside). There is a confliction with tank armor just being fashion and not a part of protection by the aspect that it is generally so visually and actually statistically protective (glamour is an illusion and doesn't apply to this conversation).

Spot on, Shougun.

Fantasy or not, tank armour is armour designed to protect you (why bother calling it tank armour if it has you showing 90% of your skin?).


Dark Knight from Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions.

[Shougun]

honest question, has AF being drastically different ever actually been an issue?

Looking through them I see the variance in ninja/kunoichi costumes which makes sense as ninja is a very japanese rooted fantasy class
and scholar has the pleated skirt/high socks vs culottes/short socks

Everything else the AF costumes seem to be pretty close to identical outside of woman needing a slightly different cut for their extra curves

Not really* (minus Dragoon), most gears are quite similar - with this game it is easier to name the gears that are different. Dragoon most of all, Ninja a little bit, and I can't recall the school outfit gathering much and that's probably because of the expectation of it being a "school" (clothes) outfit. Imo, that is a compliment. Also as pointed out before most likely this won't be an issue for tank gear as in the past it has been quite clear, even when people didn't want a six pack on females, they got the full set anyways (imo I think it's awesome, and an aside: girls can get six packs, they just tend to not do the right workouts and diet to get them - most guys don't wake up with a six pack either (or due to genetics will ever get one, even if being fit/strong)).

*Edit: That I'm aware lol. I know for example the crystal tower has the boss armor transfer as is to female characters but there was an undershirt for men - would like to see that just be like females right on the flesh. But that isn't AF so wasn't part of your question.

Spot on, Shougun.