Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

[AJ_Anyia]

The Jobs System, we'll use XI as an example, is very restrictive and doesn't allow much in the way of customization or flexibility. With the armory system you can custom tailor your character to fit your style and/or situation as it evolves. Subjobs were the only method of branching from the main job's focalized talents and you were left with having access to 1 and 1/2 jobs. But with this style and system your limits are all based on how far you take the jobs. Granted there are some things that some jobs just can't use on others, and those things are what keep that class unique. However I would lose all faith this game if all of my options were taken away and I was forced back to an old system with limited choices and mandated options. Here, I'm free to do as I choose and I'd like to keep it that way.

How about this...ready? Are you sure?

Rename classes but keep them as classes/armoury example. Lancer-> Dragoon, Thaumaturge-> Blackmage.
Then...
Rename jobs so they sound like a specialized roles of newly renamed classes example. Dragoon-> Dragon Knight, Blackmage-> Wizard/Warlock

That way if I start as the class blackmage I can become a Wizard by unlocking it by completing a quest.


I would be so happy if this happened, and it would keep the system they already have and are going to implement but get rid of the names that have nothing to do with Final Fantasy, making it feel like Final Fantasy.

And this was actually done in the first and original Final Fantasy that was created. You started as one thing and could "upgrade" it through a quest. Fighter --> Knight / Monk --> Black Belt / Thief --> Ninja and so on. An interesting idea, but all I'm really seeing no matter what the argument is people wanting things to be named with titles that they are familiar with. Call it blunt, rude, curt, whatever I'm just saying what I'm seeing.

[Ronik]

The Jobs System, we'll use XI as an example, is very restrictive and doesn't allow much in the way of customization or flexibility. With the armory system you can custom tailor your character to fit your style and/or situation as it evolves. Subjobs were the only method of branching from the main job's focalized talents and you were left with having access to 1 and 1/2 jobs. But with this style and system your limits are all based on how far you take the jobs. Granted there are some things that some jobs just can't use on others, and those things are what keep that class unique. However I would lose all faith this game if all of my options were taken away and I was forced back to an old system with limited choices and mandated options. Here, I'm free to do as I choose and I'd like to keep it that way.



And this was actually done in the first and original Final Fantasy that was created. You started as one thing and could "upgrade" it through a quest. Fighter --> Knight / Monk --> Black Belt / Thief --> Ninja and so on. An interesting idea, but all I'm really seeing no matter what the argument is people wanting things to be named with titles that they are familiar with. Call it blunt, rude, curt, whatever I'm just saying what I'm seeing.

Wow, I'd go as far as to wager you've never played XI because you completely misrepresent the diversity possible through FFXI's job/subjob system. In FFXI, the choice of a subjob was hugely meaningful and, in nearly every case, significantly affected how you played your character and what role your character played in a party. The XI job/subjob system provided far more meaningful choices and flexibility than FFXIV's class system currently does.


For example, in XI, subbing THF, WAR, or NIN all resulted in radically different approaches to party & solo dynamics. There is nothing currently in FFXIV which comes close to approaching this level of diversification. All the players of any given class in FFXIV play more or less exactly the same and use more or less the same abilities. You might cherry pick one or two utility spells from another class, but ultimately there is very little variety in what you can and should use. The current system merely offers the illusion of choice, when in reality there are no meaningful choices to be made.

If the class system were abolished, they would obviously include some other system for diversification of class abilities. There would probably be some way to use abilities from other jobs on your "main" job, but it would obviously be limited in some respects . All in all, the system would function very much so like it currently does.

[AJ_Anyia]

... You might cherry pick one or two utility spells from another class, but ultimately there is very little variety in what you can and should use. The current system merely offers the illusion of choice, when in reality there are no meaningful choices to be made.

If the class system were abolished, they would obviously include some other system for diversification of class abilities. There would probably be some way to use abilities from other jobs on your "main" job, but it would obviously be limited in some respects . All in all, the system would function very much so like it currently does.

So what you're saying, is that there is more variety and useability in being limited to one job and half of another job versus having access to multiple job's abilities all at once? I don't see much of an illusion there. The job system mandates that certain people have to come as certain jobs to make things run smooth, where as in the current armory system people can swap out as need dictates. Again I state that being able to put what you want on a class and not be mandated to a certain set of abilities is still better. If you SAM/THF all you have are that SAM's abilities and half the level's of THF. I fail to see the flexibility, the only job from XI that really has player's choice is Blue Mage since you can choose what spells, and in turn traits, you have. Other than that, you're stuck to your main and sub's stuff. Being a BST/WHM for soloing isn't what I'd consider versatile. The only variety you have are your pets

And while those few cherry picked things may look minor, they are in fact what makes things catered to the solo/small groups. You don't need dedicated healers for leves or exp burning, it makes thing run a heck of a lot smoother having them I'll admit, but they aren't mandatory. Now that's not an every instance situation, in some they are absolutely necessary. Not only that, but here we are able to change on the fly where as in XI we had to go all the way back, change, etc. In XI is a healer d/c's and doesn't come back you're screwed. In XIV if a CON d/c's, and granted if someone else has it leveled, progress continues. Or if there's a total wipe save one DD, chances are there's a higher probability that DD from XIV has CON leveled to a point that he/she has raise versus XI where its subbed whm/rdm soley for raise. I haven't seen too many RNG/WHM or RNG/RDM out there and the ones I did see were subbed RDM for wildfire/trueflight only and that was all they were there for. But I know plenty of ARC, GLA and PUG that have enough levels in CON for a clutch raise should the situation warrant it. Again I'll say that I'll take being able to pick and choose what I want versus being told, "This is what you have, deal with it."

Granted subjobs gives versatility to the main jobs, but that comes at a price. I can change things on the fly in XIV, but in XI I have to go all the way back to my MH/Nomad Moogle to change subjobs which interrupts the flow of whatever it is that's going on. And now if a job implementation is put into the game, the elitism will come back where if people don't have things set to a way that's comfortable they'll get booted out of groups or whatever. And all of these "cherry picked" things are just that only because of the limited classes that are out right now, more will be released and more things will become available to us to choose from. Am I in favor of a job system to augment or specifically style a job for a set amount of time? Sure, why not since it would make things easier to set yourself to a job and have your abilities automatically change to that job's style. Am I in favor or abolishing the class and armory system in favor of job classes? No. NO. Hell. No.

[Ronik]

I will address your points separately.

So what you're saying, is that there is more variety and useability in being limited to one job and half of another job versus having access to multiple job's abilities all at once? I don't see much of an illusion there. The job system mandates that certain people have to come as certain jobs to make things run smooth, where as in the current armory system people can swap out as need dictates. Again I state that being able to put what you want on a class and not be mandated to a certain set of abilities is still better. If you SAM/THF all you have are that SAM's abilities and half the level's of THF. I fail to see the flexibility, the only job from XI that really has player's choice is Blue Mage since you can choose what spells, and in turn traits, you have. Other than that, you're stuck to your main and sub's stuff. Being a BST/WHM for soloing isn't what I'd consider versatile. The only variety you have are your pets

Again, you make it painfully obvious that you have little no no understanding of how the subjob system impacted job roles in FFXI. Your vast over-simplification that the subjob system is merely "half the levels of another class" is a gross misrepresentation of what you gained through your choice of subjob.

Since I have increasing doubts that you have any significant experience with FFXI, I'd prefer if you don't bring it up in your arguments. There is tremendous flexibility in the subjob system merely because of how valuable certain traits/abilities were in FFXI. A Sam/War would do considerably more damage than a Sam/Nin, but be far more fragile. A Sam/Thf would have great aggro control and great burst damage, but weaker sustained DPS and slower TP gain. In ANY example, the subjob significantly augments the performance of the base job. This leads to many meaningful choices. Do I want to do more raw DPS? Can my tank handle me going war sub? Should I play it safe and help my tank with threat with Thf sub? Should I go Nin sub to lessen the burden on the healers and keep myself alive? When soloing, Dnc sub or Nin sub?

I challenge you to find any class abilities in FFXIV which so fundamentally alter your gameplay experience the way subjobs did. Yes, despite having access to all abilities from every class, there are no meaningful choices to be made. No, equipping Raise or Cure II on your Archer does not even come close to the depth of the subjob system.

And while those few cherry picked things may look minor, they are in fact what makes things catered to the solo/small groups. You don't need dedicated healers for leves or exp burning, it makes thing run a heck of a lot smoother having them I'll admit, but they aren't mandatory. Now that's not an every instance situation, in some they are absolutely necessary. Not only that, but here we are able to change on the fly where as in XI we had to go all the way back, change, etc. In XI is a healer d/c's and doesn't come back you're screwed. In XIV if a CON d/c's, and granted if someone else has it leveled, progress continues. Or if there's a total wipe save one DD, chances are there's a higher probability that DD from XIV has CON leveled to a point that he/she has raise versus XI where its subbed whm/rdm soley for raise. I haven't seen too many RNG/WHM or RNG/RDM out there and the ones I did see were subbed RDM for wildfire/trueflight only and that was all they were there for. But I know plenty of ARC, GLA and PUG that have enough levels in CON for a clutch raise should the situation warrant it. Again I'll say that I'll take being able to pick and choose what I want versus being told, "This is what you have, deal with it."

Uhm, the grind from 1-50 is quite casual at the moment. A dedicated player can do it in a week fairly easily. The cherry picked things look minor because they ARE minor. Changing the class system to a job only system will barely impact the levelling process as long as every class is given some baseline way to heal/drain/mitigate a little while solo. Your entire argument basically centers around equipping Raise/Healing spells on classes that cannot normally equip them. That's not meaningful and it's certainly not a hard choice to make when each spell only costs 2-3 action points out of what, 50-70 you have? Again, you only have the illusion of choice here. In FFXI, there were some real decisions to be made when a RDM subbed BLM over WHM. Here, it's pretty damned straightforward which abilities you want to be using at any given moment.

Granted subjobs gives versatility to the main jobs, but that comes at a price. I can change things on the fly in XIV, but in XI I have to go all the way back to my MH/Nomad Moogle to change subjobs which interrupts the flow of whatever it is that's going on. And now if a job implementation is put into the game, the elitism will come back where if people don't have things set to a way that's comfortable they'll get booted out of groups or whatever. And all of these "cherry picked" things are just that only because of the limited classes that are out right now, more will be released and more things will become available to us to choose from. Am I in favor of a job system to augment or specifically style a job for a set amount of time? Sure, why not since it would make things easier to set yourself to a job and have your abilities automatically change to that job's style. Am I in favor or abolishing the class and armory system in favor of job classes? No. NO. Hell. No.

I never said we need to implement a mog house. Job swaps can be handled on the fly by the same way the class system is - changing your weapon. Also, optimization is not the same thing as elitism. If you're running around as an Archer with 30 DD spells from Conjurer, you deserve to get booted from whatever party you're in. There is a such thing as playing your class well and playing it poorly, and if you think this reality is somehow tied to the premise of a job system, you'd be wrong.

[AJ_Anyia]

This isn't a bash on XI or its system

Since I have increasing doubts that you have any significant experience with FFXI, I'd prefer if you don't bring it up in your arguments. There is tremendous flexibility in the subjob system merely because of how valuable certain traits/abilities were in FFXI. A Sam/War would do considerably more damage than a Sam/Nin, but be far more fragile. A Sam/Thf would have great aggro control and great burst damage, but weaker sustained DPS and slower TP gain. In ANY example, the subjob significantly augments the performance of the base job. This leads to many meaningful choices. Do I want to do more raw DPS? Can my tank handle me going war sub? Should I play it safe and help my tank with threat with Thf sub? Should I go Nin sub to lessen the burden on the healers and keep myself alive? When soloing, Dnc sub or Nin sub?

I challenge you to find any class abilities in FFXIV which so fundamentally alter your gameplay experience the way subjobs did.

That is a lop-sided challenge considering the content comparison between the two games is astronomical 22 Jobs versus 7 classes, of course the one with the higher number has more to work with. I still think that you're missing what I'm saying so I'll word it like this and use your examples. If XI's system played like XIV's then you wouldn't have to choose between DPS SAM, Utsusemi SAM, or Hate Control/Burst Damage SAM and you'd have the ability to have all of the above. You'd be able to do high burst damage with hate control and have high damage output and have shadows being able to be cast. And, again, that is a lop sided challenge considering the time that XI has been out and how long it's been developed and worked on and how much it has to offer. In other words, it has worlds more because it's been out longer. More jobs, more options, etc. All I'm saying, simply and to the point, is that I prefer this system because you have access to everything. All this illusion is just a lack of comparable content. If we were to copy and past all of the jobs from XI to XIV then we'd have SAM's that could SATA/Boost/Souleater weapon skills and Beserk/Focus/Last Resort for DPS all at once and have Utsusemi on. PLDs would be able to use Sentinel/Defender/Provoke/Perfect Counter/Chakra/Utsusemi all at once.

I'm not bashing the subjob system because it did revolutionize how the game was played and did indeed allow people more customizing options and flexibility in how they played their main jobs. But if I was on my SAM and someone told me, "You have two choices. You can either have just the skills from this other job here along with your own. Or, have all of the combat skills from all of your jobs plus your own." I think I know what I'd pick. But again, we can't do that with XIV yet because the jobs aren't there yet and it's still being worked on/fixed/tweaked.

Again, this isn't a bash on XI or its system because I am fully aware of how it impacted the game. And again I'll say this, I am fully in favor of a job system to go along-side the armory system; but not to replace. I am willing to admit and take a look at the job system for XI and am ready and willing to admit for that game it's fantastic. But this isn't XI and I don't think that XI's system should come to XIV and replace the system already in place.

[Natabant]

This isn't a bash on XI or its system



That is a lop-sided challenge considering the content comparison between the two games is astronomical 22 Jobs versus 7 classes, of course the one with the higher number has more to work with. I still think that you're missing what I'm saying so I'll word it like this and use your examples. If XI's system played like XIV's then you wouldn't have to choose between DPS SAM, Utsusemi SAM, or Hate Control/Burst Damage SAM and you'd have the ability to have all of the above. You'd be able to do high burst damage with hate control and have high damage output and have shadows being able to be cast. And, again, that is a lop sided challenge considering the time that XI has been out and how long it's been developed and worked on and how much it has to offer. In other words, it has worlds more because it's been out longer. More jobs, more options, etc. All I'm saying, simply and to the point, is that I prefer this system because you have access to everything. All this illusion is just a lack of comparable content. If we were to copy and past all of the jobs from XI to XIV then we'd have SAM's that could SATA/Boost/Souleater weapon skills and Beserk/Focus/Last Resort for DPS all at once and have Utsusemi on. PLDs would be able to use Sentinel/Defender/Provoke/Perfect Counter/Chakra/Utsusemi all at once.

I'm not bashing the subjob system because it did revolutionize how the game was played and did indeed allow people more customizing options and flexibility in how they played their main jobs. But if I was on my SAM and someone told me, "You have two choices. You can either have just the skills from this other job here along with your own. Or, have all of the combat skills from all of your jobs plus your own." I think I know what I'd pick. But again, we can't do that with XIV yet because the jobs aren't there yet and it's still being worked on/fixed/tweaked.

Again, this isn't a bash on XI or its system because I am fully aware of how it impacted the game. And again I'll say this, I am fully in favor of a job system to go along-side the armory system; but not to replace. I am willing to admit and take a look at the job system for XI and am ready and willing to admit for that game it's fantastic. But this isn't XI and I don't think that XI's system should come to XIV and replace the system already in place.

I understand where you're coming from, and of course...we would all make the same choice in theory. But I think your personal bias is getting in the way of looking at this objectively. Try to imagine how you'd feel watching a THF do all of what you just said on XI, plus having their own natural A++ rating in evasion. They have all your Store TP traits; they have Meditate; they have shadows; they have their natural affinity with crossbows, which gives them access to blood/acid/sleep bolts; and they have their recently added duel wielding trait as well. So, now, they can get faster TP than your SAM could ever dream of by duel wielding blau and merc or something, and then they can cure themselves w/ waltzs on top of all that. Does that seem like a fun game to you? Every job does everything the exact same way? And the only thing that separates them is the fact that they have a different weapon, or different base skills and attributes? Personally, I don't think so. I know I would have loved it on my MNK, but I have to imagine how I'd feel seeing some THF do the exact same thing I could. MNK was one of the few jobs that could solo a God: Genbu. Why would I support the idea of a game giving every job the ability to do what only my job and a few others were capable of doing? Furthermore, why would you support the idea of a game that allows every job to do what you did best (spam weapon skills)? It takes all the fun out of it.

Statement: "I solo'd a GOD!"

Reply: "No shit. It's easy, who hasn't?"