Please disable changing Cleric Stance during combat for make healer focus on healing.

[KisaiTenshi]

Either we accept that ALL of your runs in DF are absolutely terrible and that that somehow justifies your skewed perspective on the healer role OR we accept that you simply don't approve of healers dealing damage on philosophical grounds and want all of the stalks of grass cut equally low. Which is it? Can't be both. Plenty of healers successfully perform their jobs to the fullest by incorporating their DPS kits and are eschewing nothing but laziness; kindly refrain from lumping the entire community in with your statement.

...

Don't be absurd. They did it because healers were overpowered in PvP with that much damage-dealing ability; it certainly wasn't because Yoshida took offense at healers daring to use the abilities he and his team designed for them.

So what is it then? Are Healers with CS overpowered, or did SE (see the first post again) never intend for the healers to contribute to party DPS? It can't be both.

That's why I keep saying "developers intent", so what if the healers DPS and the DF queue is faster by 2 seconds. I'd say >90% of PUG DF runs have no DPS opportunity because players don't pay attention to the mechanics and want to do things faster, riskier for no change in reward. If crappy WHM's didn't try to DPS, then they wouldn't be bringing down the entire party's DPS.

Months later and Kisa still has no idea how other healers successfully pull this off. I actually wish we were on the same server so we could party up and I could demonstrate how this works when done correctly.

That's what youtube/twitchtv is for, but the average stream is too poor to really figure out what people are doing unless they do absolutely everything with the mouse.

Wow, I haven't seen such a stupid post in a really long time.

Why even have Holy then? Or Stone? Or Scholar DoTs?

Why don't we just remove all abilities from these jobs that don't directly heal. That surely wouldn't be boring and unfair to healers at all.

First... CS is a CNJ skill. It can be cross classed to SCH but not SMN. So are redundant skills like Cure/Psysick and Raise/Resurrect. Just because you can cross-class it doesn't mean it's required. For all intents SCH job trades the DPS/Tank pets for the Healing and Buff pets. Their DPS damage without CS is unchanged from ACN. When you equip the SMN job stone you get an INT boost where as the SCH job stone brings the Mind up to about the same amount as CNJ. Where as when a CNJ equips the WHM job stone, the mind multiplier is changed. The SCH loses half it's DPS vs ACN/SMN because it no longer has DPS pets.

If CS wasn't available during DF , that wouldn't prevent a healer from DPS'ing, it would just put CS where it belongs, on the Solo content. CS in dungeons makes healers "too powerful", and players end up queuing as healer when they only want to DPS. It must terribly suck when both healers in an 8-man don't want to heal.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-Event-5-19%29

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

Which is what I've been saying forever. The Healer is not required to DPS. That is entirely at the whim of the healer. The arguments over this always boil down to crappy players telling healers to DPS, and crappy healers "doing nothing" when there's obviously something else they can do.

If the developers had intended for the healer to contribute DPS in all battles, the mechanics would frequently reflect more opportunities for them to DPS by having more long-cast raid-wipe mechanics (think demon walls) where little damage is being thrown, followed by heavy damage that can be predicted and shielded/topped up against. But no, nearly all trash mobs in the game can just be rounded up and everyone throw their largest AOE at the whole lot.

Just because you have DPS skills, does not mean you need to be using every single one in every single fight. This is the message that I'm trying to get across, and people seem to be intent on reading it as "Boo, DPS healers are bad"

Yes a lot of DPS healers are bad, because they have been told by crappy parties to "DPS or get kicked", or are under the impression that they will be kicked if they don't. So they do both poorly.

[Cynfael]

So what is it then? Are Healers with CS overpowered, or did SE (see the first post again) never intend for the healers to contribute to party DPS? It can't be both..

It falls flat when you try to be snarky; mostly because you think you have a point, but don't. CS was deemed to be overpowered specifically in PvP because it made multiple-healer Holy train parties and such a thing. PvP and PvE are two very different animals with different objectives and party comps.

Quick points:

- You really claim that >90% of DF parties are so bad as to make healer DPS unviable? Not in my experience.

- All of these healers who supposedly are berated in DF parties for their lack of contribution: perhaps some of them are the problem if this happens to them often.

- The message you say you are trying to get across is not the one that you actually express.

- More sweeping generalizations: healers being bad because some mean person made them DPS when they didn't want to? I have difficulty believing that this is a widespread problem. When I encounter healers being bad it's usually because of them doing too little and/or attempting to play reactively. Healers who attempt to DPS and aren't doing it right just need to learn how to play well in general.

- Also, choosing not to factor in at-level healer DPS when establishing clear minimums does not mean anywhere close to what you are saying it does. Read it carefully. The devs avoid designing minimums with healer DPS in mind because the skill ceiling for that is higher than minimum performance expectation for player parties and would increase difficulty across the board (IOW only good healers stance-dance effectively, and clear minimums are designed to be accessible to more average at-level parties).

[VanilleFang]

snip

Why is it always all or nothing with you? Either you can't DPS because the team is too horrible, or you only DPS and let your team die. How come there is never an in-between? Why can't you grasp the idea that people can do both?

[FoxyAreku]

-snip-

You really don't get it, do you?
No one queues as a healer expecting only to dps. A good healer will heal AND dps when the opportunity is there.
Whether it's factored into the fights or not is a pointless argument, and is just an excuse to do less work. If you can keep everyone alive and still do 200 dps to help kill the boss, there is literally no argument to not do it except "I'm lazy" or "I'm not good enough".

Also saying Cleric Stance is optional because it's a cross class skill just shows how little you know. ._. Next you'll say invigorate and swiftcast are optional for melee and casters respectively.

It also greatly helps. When final coil first came out, there were very few (IF ANY) groups that were able to push 4 bennus without both healers contributing as much dps as possible in t12. Stuff like that makes a huge difference.

[KisaiTenshi]

You really don't get it, do you?

I've been playing the game on and off since V1.0 Beta, kid. Nothing has changed in this game regarding people complaining about DPS as a healer.

No one queues as a healer expecting only to dps.

Nonsense. If this was the case you wouldn't see WHM's entering CS and never removing it. That's one of several kinds of bad WHM's.

I have never had anyone, in any party to date ever tell me to DPS or not DPS outside a RAID. In fact I've had more commendations when I haven't DPS'd at all. I have had co-healers people say they were not going to heal in 24-man raids. For every one that says they aren't, there's several who just don't heal in any meaningful way.


The fact is, people queue as healers because the queue is faster, and Hunt/FATE grind is boring.

The situation is much different with light parties, because as the Solo Healer, you're setting the pace. The average party is less crappy overall compared to the 24-man Raid, but just like the raid party, you have players trying to just faceroll over the content so they get carried. When you luck out and get a party that actually isn't all about speed-pulling the dungeon, then you see opportunity to DPS to make the trash pulls go faster.

But as I've said (across many threads in this forum)
1. There is NO REQUIREMENT of the healer to DPS.
and
2. The developers intent has NEVER REQUIRED the healers to DPS.

If you pick the healer role in the DF queue, don't be a jerk to the party and eschew your duty as a healer. Players like Cynfael are just fine Stance Dancing, and that suits their play style. It does not however equate with everyone is required to play like him, and the average player is awful when they do outside their Static party.

Whenever we have these threads on THIS forum, it always devolves into more people saying they don't want to do any DPS, a few people berating those that don't want to DPS as being lazy or incompetent. Then there is someone else who I won't name, who says they purposely make the Healer's job harder when they tank because they believe it so.

If people weren't so quick to be abusive to each other in this game over bloody playstyles then maybe we'd have less arguments of this kind in the first place.

[Cynfael]

If people weren't so quick to be abusive to each other in this game over bloody playstyles then maybe we'd have less arguments of this kind in the first place.

This much I will agree with. Sometimes conversation can get heated (or even just appear that way since text is subject to the reader's interpretation regardless of how hard the writer might have tried to express their own), and I know that I am prone to talking myself into an elitist corner because I have such a difficult time relating to some of the concerns other players have in this area. I'm quite a bit more forgiving of my fellow players in actual gameplay than I come across as here.

On the flip side, it can be tough not to come down hard when players openly campaign for what one views as unnecessary and punitive changes to an entire role that would drastically impact your own play experience (referring of course to the OP).