Do you think sell groups are hurting end game community?

[randysquirrel]

No I don't blame clear sellers; if the "blame" lies with anyone, it is clear buyers.
What reason is there to do T9 once you have the achievement? You have seen the cutscenes and the loot is irrelevant, but if someone says they'll pay you x million gils to do it, you just might

[randysquirrel]

Square-Enix could fix this easily...

This would mean there would be no statics, and no-one could ever practice any turn in PF. Until you'd cleared, the only way you'd be able to do anything would be in DF with 7 new random people every time.

Well thought through.
Think before you post, "fix this easily" lmao

[charlemagne]

Haven't read the whole discussion so forgive me if this has already been said.
I think there is an important distinction to be made between the two main types of merc activity. Selling clears is problematical insomuch as it advances players who are not ready into more advanced content, impacting on the groups they then join.
The second merc activity, selling runs for gear is a slightly different matter. If merc companies are merely helping players who can beat the content to also beat the rng on getting drops then I don't think it's an issue.
The argument that it encourages RMT through people buying gil to pay for these runs is an unfair one. I hate RMT, don't get me wrong. The mercs are NOT responsible for the RMT though, the gil buyers and sellers are. It is on them that the focus for reducing RMT needs to be placed. Merc companies are a long standing and perfectly fine part of the mmo experience.

[Darra]

That was the point. The "clear" hump needs to be set at a level that actually reflects the skill of the player, not the skill of the best player in the party. Selling clears would vanish overnight if "carrying" weak players lowered the reward to nothing or negative.

On the other side of the coin, we could just disincentive selling clears by changing the reward mechanics so that players who are punching below their weight are tracked, and players who participated with carries are blocked from forming parties with players who have been carried.

This response isn't just targeted at the person being quoted, but at all of the players arguing that kill selling is inherently bad.

Are you against kill selling because you think it needs to be stopped so that you no longer get annoyed by RMT spam? Or are you against kill selling because you consider it "immoral"? Or is it just that you sometimes get a bad player in your PF party who'd bought a kill?

If it's number 1: Materia costs and crafted items drive RMT more than kill sells do. Most sells that happen cost little money, 500k here, 2mil there, this is not unreasonable amounts and doesn't take that long to make, even without being a crafter. It's the rare sells that someone pays 10million+ for that you start to question the source of their gil, not the pocket money buys/sells. Now I'm one of the people that always argues buying does result in some RMT, and that if kill selling could be limited it would cut down on RMT demand but I also point out that it's not the sole source of RMT. When it comes to RMT, 7/10 complaints I see about it are related to the advertising spam, 2/10 complaints are people purely saying they are against it and don't see a point, and 1/10 is the "It's against my morals", which is an argument that makes no sense to me personally. This tiny group with the "morals" create conflict within the community by peddling their views (ergo, kill selling itself isn't responsible for harming the community, it's people's opinions of said act that can be "harmful").

If it's number 2: This is a personal belief, and one you have no right to try forcing upon others. I do not like the taste of coffee, I wont drink it, but I wont deny other people coffee, so why would you or anyone else think they have a right to force their moral codes upon someone else? You wouldn't like it if I were trying to force my ideologies upon you if they differed from your own, so why is it alright for you to do so to others? This is actually where the harm comes from, not the act of selling or providing a service, but from the people that are so strongly against kill selling that they try to force others to change to their way of thinking, or belittle players that have bought (you don't even know why players pay for kills that they paid for, some are just for glamor items or a specific drop they've been unlucky in getting with their own static)

If it's number 3: This has been pointed out a lot of times, bad players exist, players that take a while to learn content exist. Some players just take longer to learn content, other players struggle with certain mechanics and require instruction on voice chat (but do perfectly well when you tell them to do something), other players struggle with the movement style of randoms. I've recently experienced a MNK in T10 that when flank attacking moved on top of me as an OT forcing me to move into Crackle Hiss to avoid stacking our Heat Lightening, this has gotten me killed as a result of that MNK's ridiculous movement patterns. The point is, whilst some that pay are bad and will drag down your groups, others that don't pay can do that just as much, so to bring it back to the original topic of discussion: "Do you think sell groups are hurting end game community", in this case, it isn't exactly helping but it's certainly not the major cause of harm to it, it's a minor affect if any.

[Dererk]

There is nothing requiring to you to preform to any expectations when joining a PF, sure the PF lead can kick you after you join for any and all reasons that pop into their mind (here in Eorzea workplace equality laws don't exist, shame). There is no application process or screening. If you met the ilvl requirements the PF poster has set and have access to the content than anybody can stroll on in at their leisure and join your group. If you down the content, you have no way of knowing if that BLM was sitting there munching on cheetos the entire fight or if the WHM was stressed out and playing at %110 (give them a cookie and a pay raise!)

Seriously, there are so many holes in the logic of trying to compare a real life job to this.

just meeting the item level a person set in party finder isn't enough of a reason to join they also have to meet the exp it progression that the part leader has set. If your not at that part of the fight at lest be considerate and ask otherwise don't join because then your wasting the others time.

[Bellandy]

A lot of people are talking from the perspective of buyers, but not much has been mentioned about sellers: what can compel sellers to actually sell runs, aside from the money factor?

Selling runs is a pretty valid activity that requires time, organization and discipline. You need to have reliable people to show up on time, on the right roles and who can consistently clear content. That in itself takes a lot more time than you'd think, and it makes "hardcore" players stick to the game. When I'm not progressing in savage, sell runs is the only thing that keeps me online: I can make pretty good money, play with my FC mates from different statics, and have some fun on TS. What's not to love?

I won't get on the whole "but RMT!" debate, just trying to offer a different perspective.

[Sapphic]

Hmmm. Going to say no it's not harming endgame. I personally would never buy a clear nor would I ever sell one. But I believe that every person has a right to exchange and to pursue their own interests in that exchange.

And when it involves players buying gil from dodgy websiters to fund there clear buying, then it doesn't just affect endgame, it affects the WHOLE game. Not just from the extra gil being injected into the community, but due to them buying gil and keeping a market in game for gil sellers, it affects everyones experience. Because of them new players are getting numerous gil seller tells before they even get out of the starter cutscenes. Such a nice impression to give to new players, Gil spam in the first minute.

[AdamuKun322]

I did pay for my Titan EX clear and regret it even though with the players I was with in the selling party were good and I was actually on par with them only dying once to bombs and plumes (probably the hardest thing to dodge as BLM in midcast). I do not take pride in it and have gone to train on two jobs I enjoy, PLD and DRG to get better and understand the roles even better so I can open up a PF group as a Learning/Clear party one day.

[NovaUltimatum]

My only issue with the service is it contributes to the RMT trading economy. While there are legitimate gillionaires who may buy wins with their crafting profits, my experience has shown most buyers are funded by RMT.

[SDaemon]

just meeting the item level a person set in party finder isn't enough of a reason to join they also have to meet the exp it progression that the part leader has set. If your not at that part of the fight at lest be considerate and ask otherwise don't join because then your wasting the others time.

True, however you are taking the argument away from what I originally posted and have been talking about. All of which isn't even on topic to the thread. So let's just let it go.