Do I really need all DOH Classes to craft 3* and 4*

[Nyalia]

In my opinion, the classes you want/need for 3* and 4* crafts:

1. CUL 37 (required)
2. CRP 50 (absolutely required)
3. WVR 50 (possibly not required, but I consider it to be. My most used and loved skill of all time)
4. ALC 50 (gives you +28-42 CP on high end synths - that's a lot of CP, essentially required for my 4* crafts and really handy for my 3*s)
5. BSM 50 (major Progress/Quality buff for 3* ONLY - do NOT use in 4* crafts, where it has no effect)
6. LTW 15 (very nice for 3* crafts only - I don't use it in 4* at all)
7. ARM 15 (for 4* crafts only - rapid is pretty much required for any 4* rotation I've seen)
8. ARM 50 (practically required for the Master Book II tokens, but only saves you one step on other 3* rotations, and I never use it on 4* rotations. Skippable... if you can get the books without it)
9. GSM 50 (nice quality boost on your BB and great padding when fishing for Good/Excellent, but not required by any means)
10. CUL 50 (nice for Master Book II turnins and little else)

I use this rotation for the Master books. It's very good, but requires 448 Craftsmanship, 390 CP, CUL 50, CRP 50, ALC 50, ARM 50, BSM 50, WVR 50, LTW 15, and really benefits from GSM 50. I don't know what I'd do for that rotation without ARM 50 or BSM 50...

[Shinzoku]

[*]ARM 50 (practically required for the Master Book II tokens, but only saves you one step on other 3* rotations, and I never use it on 4* rotations. Skippable... if you can get the books without it)

I'm not sure what 4* rotations you are using but Piece by Piece is used in almost every rotation I've seen, unless you are spamming Rapid Synth which I would not suggest. Almost every 4* rotation I've seen does 3 x PbP, 1 x RS and 1 X CSII. But you are right that it is necessary for the Master book II tokens.

[baopee]

My current rotation for progress (2.5 Bis without Apron - I still cant decide I want to go with control or craftsmanship meld ) >_<

CZ - IQ - PBP - PBP - ING II - SH II - RS- CSII for 586

CZ - IQ - PBP - PBP - ING II - SH II - RS for 445

[Nyalia]

I'm not sure what 4* rotations you are using but Piece by Piece is used in almost every rotation I've seen, unless you are spamming Rapid Synth which I would not suggest. Almost every 4* rotation I've seen does 3 x PbP, 1 x RS and 1 X CSII. But you are right that it is necessary for the Master book II tokens.

My (pre-lucis) rotation that I prefer is 4x RS 1x CS2. It costs 45 less CP than your rotation, which is quite a lot of savings. Of course, I don't do too many 4* synths. Still, saying it's "required" for 4* synths is simply not true, since I haven't even used it and have made 15 HQ 4* items (out of 16 attempts) using 4x RS.

There's a difference between something being slightly better, as your rotation might be, and saying something is required.


Also, I didn't say my 4* rotations were the absolute, optimized best, only that I have never used PbP in a 4* rotation, which is a true statement.

[Shinzoku]

I never said it was absolutely required but I will concede your point. I just like eliminating as much RNG as possible, which RS certainly is. Since most of these 4* recipes are heavily reliant on using ToT whenever possible (unavoidable RNG unfortunately), you should "potentially" get back more than the 45 CP you are saving from using RS.

As with all crafts, there are always going to be multiple rotations, and 4* crafting is about reacting to what you are given. Also, I like to throw in at least 1 WN I, which I'm sure not everyone does. Ultimately, whatever works for any given person is what they should use

[Nyalia]

I never said it was absolutely required but I will concede your point. I just like eliminating as much RNG as possible, which RS certainly is. Since most of these 4* recipes are heavily reliant on using ToT whenever possible (unavoidable RNG unfortunately), you should "potentially" get back more than the 45 CP you are saving from using RS.

As with all crafts, there are always going to be multiple rotations, and 4* crafting is about reacting to what you are given. Also, I like to throw in at least 1 WN I, which I'm sure not everyone does. Ultimately, whatever works for any given person is what they should use

Exactly We endgame crafters have to be careful when giving advice of confusing stuff we really love having with stuff that is really needed. While I want to say to new crafters, "Omg, CZ is so awesome! I couldn't live without it!", that isn't actually true. I don't even use CZ in my 2* 100% 1-button rotation (my most used macro by far), and I can HQ 3* with or without bouillabaisse, so I can do it without CZ.

I think that my general advice of getting WVR to 50 asap is also biased there - I could probably deal without CS2 with many of my synths. I just don't want to. Ever. I do Ixali turn-ins as WVR just so I can use CS2, I like it that much. As a random note, CS2, CS2 gives the exact same progress as SS, CS (both are 240%), showing that CS2 is really just saving me 15 CP and I shouldn't be valuing it so much more than CZ just because I'm in love with it (don't tell my wife).



I used to hate using RS because RNG, until I realized that I was using HT, and HT has the same chance of success. PbP can often be replaced by RS and vice versa (to an extent), just like HT can be replaced by BT. PbP costs 15 CP, but has a 100% success rate, whereas RS has an 80% success rate. BT costs 18 CP, but has a 100% success rate, whereas HT has an 80% success rate. You frontload your CP costs, spending 15-45 CP early on to replace 80% actions with 100% actions. I prefer spending 18-54 CP at the end of the synth to replace 80% actions with 100% actions. Your way is cheaper, but my way allows for more flexibility based on Tricks of the Trade procs.

Your way isn't really less RNG, but it does get a CP discount by committing to getting a certain amount of CP back during the synth. Mine assumes less about the number of Tricks procs, but it costs more CP to gain the same benefit. So, if anything, I'd argue that my way is slightly less risky and relies a bit less on RNG, while your way has a better payout in exchange for slightly more risk.

[Shinzoku]

Never though of it that way but it makes sense. And I agree with you that end-game crafters should be wary when doling out advice. I see so many of these help threads, but honestly, all the info is available online on various websites and guides. New crafters should do more research, like I did back in 2.0-2.1. I can't really even remember what my 2* rotations were before my current stats. I found a 1* 40 dura macro that I love and still use, which now that my stats have increased I can use for 2* 40 dura mats like vanya silk, etc. I don't have a macro for the 80 dura synths but I'm pretty sure I could make one using no HTes, which a lower geared crafter could not do.

I think one thing 100% of crafters will agree is an ABSOLUTE MUST is our crafting lb: the ever mighty Byregot's Blessing!

[Darra]

In my opinion, the classes you want/need for 3* and 4* crafts:[list=1]


.

I'm going to assume that you just forgot to mention Alchemy 15, Tricks Of The Trade for 3* and 4* crafts.

I'd also like to point out that ING2 does in fact work on 4star crafts, it adds approx 10% to your progress skills and it seems to add a little to the effect on Touch skills. Not that I advocate using it unless you really need to.

[Darra]

I found a 1* 40 dura macro that I love and still use, which now that my stats have increased I can use for 2* 40 dura mats like vanya silk, etc. I don't have a macro for the 80 dura synths but I'm pretty sure I could make one using no HTes, which a lower geared crafter could not do.

This is what I now use for all 1-2* 40/80 durability (except master book ones). I do have Lucis but even without it still works with 451 craft 409 control and 338CP. It only HQ's about 95% of 2star with NQ materials, but that's the cost of a 1 button macro and easily fixed using more CP (I'm too cheap for CP food!)

/action "Comfort Zone" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Inner Quiet" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Steady Hand II" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Basic Touch" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Basic Touch" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Basic Touch" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Master's Mend" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Basic Touch" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Steady Hand ii" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Ingenuity II" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Standard Touch" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Great Strides" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Byregot's Blessing" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Careful Synthesis II" <me> <wait.3>
/action "Careful Synthesis II" <me>

[Shinzoku]

My macro is very similar, although I have 6 BTs in there and I use manipulation instead of MMI.