FFXIV - A Step to P2W (My 2.45 Feedback)

[AdamFyi]

There is actually a solution which is even a steam has, why not make it gift option in the mogstasion.

The thing is, we have no idea if the Mog Station is capable of doing that. We can likely assume that data is handled by individual accounts and it doesn't let you alter data on other accounts. You can see this by the fact that the Mog Station only lets you access and edit your account only. This would also explain the lack of a gifting option, a clunky Cash Shop implementation, and well as the way they implemented how you were supposed to gift the Bracelets to your friends.

Pay to Win is getting an in-game advantage by paying real world money. You acknowledged that players who bought and sold the bracelets have the advantage of time. Hence, my point, Pay to Win.

The question is; Is time such a big advantage? Some people would agree, and the others would disagree. However, if the end result is still the same, then should it probably equate time to a pay-to-win system? A pay-to-win system would have to be something that directly uses real-world money to give you a big advantage in the game directly from the point of purchase. How does buying Metallic Dyes or Gold/Platinum plans give you an edge over other players? Does it directly give you the Gil? Not by a long shot. You would still have to look around for potential buyers if you decided to sell it. This is the cause of a clunky implementation as well as the playerbase taking advantage of it. This means that the pay-to-win system we have been discussing about is indirectly caused and was not the intention set by the developers.

So back to what I said earlier; Can time be considered an advantage? Probably not if it is by itself, but it can be when it has other factors supporting it. What we can conclude, however, is that the pay-to-win argument has no ground to stand on because it is indirectly caused by the group that sells them and it does not have a secondary factor to support it. So I took this definition to see if this can possibly be the case;

pay-to-win

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

I'd like to bring up the bolded text. Now in this quote, pay-to-win is said to allow you to get the desired effect at a faster rate but at the same time makes the game unbalanced in favour for the paying players. Does having being married using the Gold/Platinum plans grant you some sort of buff that increases your damage tenfold? Does dyeing your gear a different colour change your weappon's stats to that of an overpowered weapon that kills everything in a single hit? Does having insane amounts of Gil grant you something equivalent to a God-mode? Nope! Thus, this means that unless there is another action (such as negating skill completely) that supports time as a factor, it probably cannot be considered pay-to-win.

Since all the transactions between the Bracelets and the players buying them for Gil happen directly in game without cash being spent during the trade, I wouldn't consider it pay-to win. Again, this is my opinion on the matter. But I will repeat myself; I do not support people selling the Bracelets for Gil, but at the same time, I do not support those who are against getting the same results at a slower pace.

Edit: Adding this in just in case. I'm not saying that your definition of the term is wrong, nor am I claiming mine is absolute; Hence why I'm using "may", "probably, and "possibly" a lot in my posts. A discussion such as this is healthy and promotes good thinking of the situation. All sides have to make their points clear and question the opposition to see if both they and us are on the same track. Individual opinions are the ones that matter in the end in order for a discussion to flourish and come to a reasonable conclusion.

[Adrian74]

snip

You're yet rounding this thread?... It seems you'll never understand just one thing, a simple, very simple and easy thing to understand.... Money.... Money...(Real money) Should not mean anything inside a game or give you things faster than anyone, it should not bypass the efforts of others in a game, because in a game what should matter only is the time you spend, the experience, the knowledge, the skill... NEVER the money, else, it is a P2W.

I think a lot of people, a lot, came to one of the remaining Subscription fee games just because that, because money should not affect our performance in the game, for that you go to a free to play (P2W) and pay the money you want for feeling superior than others or having it easier-faster. I know you perhaps come from a lot of P2W games and you don't seem to know the trouble about it, perhaps your brain accepted that in all games if Google Master comes and play he should beat us all even if he plays one minute, but it shouldn't be that way, and luckily, this game was, and maybe can still being one of those places.

Paying for looking cool? Okay, sure, I don't care about it... Having the option to pay for having in-game advantages? Come on, it throws the effors of the rest to the ground, it makes you think "HEy, why am I playing if whatever I do means nothing compared to what others can easily do by paying?... Oh, wait, I guess I'll pay too" (Yeah, that's the perfect costumer for P2W games)

Seriously, the industry of videogames is turning awful and more awful these last decade. And it is because people like you supporting and accepting it... I have even seen P2W shooters, SERIOUSLY?!... So that guy out there should have more vit or damage than me or better weapon because he paid?...Call it Pay to Win or call it I like It A lot, I don't mind, I know you like to say "It's not P2W!" Whatever it is then, MONEY should not crash your gaming performance and the way you enjoy it.

[AdamFyi]

You're yet rounding this thread?... It seems you'll never understand just one thing, a simple, very simple and easy thing to understand.... Money.... Money...(Real money) Should not mean anything inside a game or give you things faster than anyone, it should not bypass the efforts of others in a game, because in a game what should matter only is the time you spend, the experience, the knowledge, the skill... NEVER the money, else, it is a P2W.

I think a lot of people, a lot, came to one of the remaining Subscription fee games just because that, because money should not affect our performance in the game, for that you go to a free to play (P2W) and pay the money you want for feeling superior than others or having it easier-faster. I know you perhaps come from a lot of P2W games and you don't seem to know the trouble about it, perhaps your brain accepted that in all games if Google Master comes and play he should beat us all even if he plays one minute, but it shouldn't be that way, and luckily, this game was, and maybe can still being one of those places.

Paying for looking cool? Okay, sure, I don't care about it... Having the option to pay for having in-game advantages? Come on, it throws the effors of the rest to the ground, it makes you think "HEy, why am I playing if whatever I do means nothing compared to what others can easily do by paying?... Oh, wait, I guess I'll pay too" (Yeah, that's the perfect costumer for P2W games)

Seriously, the industry of videogames is turning awful and more awful these last decade. And it is because people like you supporting and accepting it... I have even seen P2W shooters, SERIOUSLY?!... So that guy out there should have more vit or damage than me or better weapon because he paid?...Call it Pay to Win or call it I like It A lot, I don't mind, I know you like to say "It's not P2W!" Whatever it is then, MONEY should not crash your gaming performance and the way you enjoy it.

Holy crap, please calm down! They are all my own opinions on the matter and what you said is a helluva big personal attack on your part. That is a big no-no on any forum.

I'm not saying that your definition of the term is wrong, nor am I claiming mine is absolute; Hence why I'm using "may", "probably, and "possibly" a lot in my posts. A discussion such as this is healthy and promotes good thinking of the situation. All sides have to make their points clear and question the opposition to see if both they and us are on the same track. Individual opinions are the ones that matter in the end in order for a discussion to flourish and come to a reasonable conclusion.

The thing is, money probably doesn't affect the gameplay of anyone, and I have made that a clear possibility earlier. The quote that was used was only for reference and is in no way related to the actual definition.

Now in this quote, pay-to-win is said to allow you to get the desired effect at a faster rate but at the same time makes the game unbalanced in favour for the paying players. Does having being married using the Gold/Platinum plans grant you some sort of buff that increases your damage tenfold? Does dyeing your gear a different colour change your weappon's stats to that of an overpowered weapon that kills everything in a single hit? Does having insane amounts of Gil grant you something equivalent to a God-mode? Nope! Thus, this means that unless there is another action (such as negating skill completely) that supports time as a factor, it probably cannot be considered pay-to-win.

Paying money also may not influence your enjoyment with the game nor does it affect your personal progression in-game. The advantage you have over other people isn't very significant because this was taken to a more personal level.

Given some thought, you will realise that the advantage they gained is just the time it took to get what they wanted. That is the only advantage. I've looked into the recipes of those crafted gear and materia and discovered that you can obtain every single material for free. The only downside the the fact that it takes time to gather up these materials. This can also be said for buying clears. Given the time, I think everyone has the capability to defeat every fight without having to pay a single Gil. The people selling these clears are cashing out on player's impatience. So what does this mean for us? We're all very impatient.

Nor does other people's efforts ever get downgraded by the play of others. Effort is still required to get everything, and right now, paying money does not grant you immortality.

The question is; Is time such a big advantage? Some people would agree, and the others would disagree. However, if the end result is still the same, then should it probably equate time to a pay-to-win system? A pay-to-win system would have to be something that directly uses real-world money to give you a big advantage in the game directly from the point of purchase. How does buying Metallic Dyes or Gold/Platinum plans give you an edge over other players? Does it directly give you the Gil? Not by a long shot. You would still have to look around for potential buyers if you decided to sell it. This is the cause of a clunky implementation as well as the playerbase taking advantage of it. This means that the pay-to-win system we have been discussing about is indirectly caused and was not the intention set by the developers.

I have also described what I think is pay-to-win, and in no circumstance have I bashed your definition of the term.

Since all the transactions between the Bracelets and the players buying them for Gil happen directly in game without cash being spent during the trade, I wouldn't consider it pay-to win. Again, this is my opinion on the matter.

I've made reasonable deductions given the information we currently have and have taken into consideration of most views on the matter, and have also described any advantages to it.

The way how Gil is being thrown out of the economy, I do think it is healthy for the economy. We do not have many Gil sinks to balance it out. We only have teleport costs, housing prices and market board taxes in-game right now. And with the way it is now, people are able to avoid a lot of these gil sinks already which doesn't help that the amount of gil going into the economy is too great. The rapid purchasing of houses removes a crap ton of gil to boot so inflation does not become an issue for now.

I even took the time to make sure that all sides are responsible for this whole issue.

However, this issue sparked an outrage because people were making gil off the Bracelets. They started comparing this to RMT-activity and also a pay-to-win method. From the respose we got, this wasn't intentional on the developer's part. A lot of the backlash had nowhere to go because people were denying that it was the players themselves who chose to sell them for gil, and also the ones who decided to buy them with the gil.

[Sarcasm]Since we all know the player's are always right and can do no wrong[/Sarcasm], the Cash Shop and SE were made the prime targets of the issue and players just attacked them for it. No, the player's aren't the only reason; The developers had some part in it due to human error and an oversight on their part. Though, everyone overlooks the former because they rather not blame themselves.

Now please, go back to reasonable and constructive discussion on the topic you yourself created. If this kind of personal individual attack continues, the moderators may decide to close and lock this thread down then place it into oblivion. I'm trying to keep up a rational discussion while accepting every reason from both sides. What I have said on my part is purely of my own opinion.

It isn't about earning the gil, it's about working towards your goal. What advantage they have is time, yes, but you can also get what they have given the time. Look, the way you're explaining the situation makes it seem like players can't take the time to do it themselves. This is evident because people actually bought the Bracelets with Gil. What we're missing from the equation is patience. The pay-to-win argument is under the assumption that time is the main advantage. However, the point I'm trying to make is to dismiss that argument by introducing the fact that if given time, the player can achieve the same goals.

[Cid_Grim]

At first, I didn't really like the idea of people selling the bracelet for gil. I would never buy an item from the cash shop, because I feel it is a waste of money. However, the cash shop doesn't bother me either.

After I thought about it, I kind of like the idea that I can obtain cash shop items in the game with gil only, especially since I would never pay real money for those items.

If everyone can obtain those items from players by using gil only, it removes the "pay to win" stigma.

[Celenia]

The thing is, we have no idea if the Mog Station is capable of doing that. We can likely assume that data is handled by individual accounts and it doesn't let you alter data on other accounts. You can see this by the fact that the Mog Station only lets you access and edit your account only. This would also explain the lack of a gifting option, a clunky Cash Shop implementation, and well as the way they implemented how you were supposed to gift the Bracelets to your friends.

In the paper, it can. SE can do this from back end. They are the one which have access to the player database. Lodestone can do this, which mean mogstatsion can take this lodestone feature. Do you need to know the account of recipient ? Nope, you only need to know the character name and the world.

As the current problem, it's same as when they implemented the ready check button. It is abused, while in their paper, it is work well.

[Spirit-Contractor]

They could stop people selling the bracelets all together if they did like you said
Make it send able only through mog station by putting in another players name but also
Make it so you can only use it to marry the person who sent it
so you can buy your partner the bracelet like they planned on

[AdamFyi]

Snip

Exactly! It is entirely possible that they can change the system around to make it work that way. To add, maybe to prevent abuse of it, if you wanted to gift the bracelet to someone, they have to be first in the same server and second be in your friend list. Maybe a drop box that lists out your friends? Then make the bracelets not only untradeable, but also be given the unique stat. That way you can't own multiple copies at any given time. Just saying that it is entirely possible, but as I said before, there is a chance that the way the Mog Station is coded does not allow such a feature to be implemented. There was some slight evidence for it, but who knows? SE may decide to rework the entire Mog Station to work around this.

[Linadae]

Selling these bracelets and to a lesser extent, dyeing services, are p2win features. Perhaps not as direct or as extreme as you would see in many if not all F2P games but that is what it boils down to.

These people are spending real money on items that they can then exchange for massive amounts of gil. That gil is allowing them to gear up in the best gear possible (crafting/gathering) and buy their way into final coil of Bahamut. That is pay to win.

Not only that but it has also made the housing situation even worse as now even the few medium and large lots left are being snapped up. And with Yoshida's recent remarks regarding how he feels demand has been met...well it may be a long time for the 98% of us who don't have a house to see more plots added. So again...pay to win since after all, only having a house allows you access to a garden/stable and not all FCs are loose with permissions regarding those things.

So for those of you who think this 'vanity' cash shop isn't affecting you, consider those two points. And look up what happened in FF11 during the great RMT sale of Christmas 2005. It took YEARS for the economy to stabilize from that blow.

[Erudain]

2 retainers are not pay to win, they are just convenience, not P2W
Minions don't affect gameplay or gives you any advantage combat wise, not P2W
Mounts don't affect gameplay or gives you any advantage combat wise, not P2W
Selling dyes or bracelets for gil can't get you the BiS set or make you good enough to clear Final coil, so it's not P2W

The mental gymnastics some people do just blows my mind....

[Spirit-Contractor]

Actually selling bracelets lets you buy 110 crafted gear and fully meld it.
With fully melded 110 gear you can beat most of the final coil